tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post1968462168089758427..comments2023-08-02T02:26:21.785-07:00Comments on Anti Anti-Mormons: Shawn McCraney Burning Heart 2009Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-7463028814819978582009-12-16T07:17:45.602-08:002009-12-16T07:17:45.602-08:00Jon,
I agree with almost everything Heiser says. ...Jon,<br />I agree with almost everything Heiser says. I think in particular the view there are other "gods" is particularly ground breaking, and the way he puts it into context, that Yahweh is unique among the gods, is not necessarily too different from LDS views. Since we believe Jesus is unique, being divine BEFORE his incarnation. I think that point gets minimized at times in the discussion of the LDS view of theosis of divinization of humanity.<br /><br />In his article in the FARMS Review of Books, Heiser lists a series of points which he asserts are agreeable to LDS and probably objectionable to tradition Christians, and then he lists additional points he says would probably be objectionable to the LDS. In the end, I have very few problems with all of his assertions. Certainly his nuanced presentation and assertion of the existence of other REAL gods, regardless of the primacy and uniqueness of Yahweh among those gods, places his views far closer to LDS beliefs than those of Shawn McCraney, Bill McKeever, Aaron Shaf or Ravi Zacharias. <br /><br />We also need some caution at letting archeology be interpreted too precisely as the way things really were. While that is repeated incessantly now by traditional Christians as the evidence swings hard over to the polytheistic nature of original Hebrew beliefs, there were years in the 20th Century when archeology seemed to strongly support things like historic monotheism, the reality of the battle of Jericho and other issues now broadly shown to be in error.<br /><br />I think the evidence of the acceptance of the existence of multiple real gods, of the future of saved beings to be like God is all over in the Bible, and the work of folks like Margaret Barker has sort of blazed the trail to make that understanding obvious. I think in about 30 years the academic world will have completely moved to embrace the evidence and have cast off the theological bias which prevails among traditional Christians. This will force change, but the Catholics and Protestants will find a way to embrace what is original to the Bible. They can meet us on that ground, waiting for them.<br /><br />I hope this makes sense. Thanks,<br />BobBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-15793306028391036492009-12-15T11:47:36.061-08:002009-12-15T11:47:36.061-08:00I am curious about the divine council that Bob is ...I am curious about the divine council that Bob is talking about, because there was a verse in the Bible that I had always wondered about. It was in the New Testament, and spoke about "rulers in heavenly realms." I always wondered what it meant. Possibly this is connected to divine council?<br /><br />What I do not understand is how this makes Israelites polytheistic. Even if there are other "gods", they still believe in one supreme God. Who rules over the others. That is who they worship.<br /><br />The first scholar that Bob mentions certainly takes this viewpoint. <br /><br />Michael Sheiser states, "Yahweh is inherently distinct and superior to all other gods. Yahweh is an elohim (a god), but no other elohim (gods) are Yahweh." -excerpt from chapter "What is an elohim?"<br /><br />Do you agree with Michael's statement Bob? It seems that you reach a different conclusion than your source Michael Sheiser.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-82966847368776886802009-10-22T09:12:22.059-07:002009-10-22T09:12:22.059-07:00"Your comebacks just keep getting better and ..."Your comebacks just keep getting better and better ..."<br /><br />When I have something of substance to respond to, they will. Right now, I'm just dealing with how "dishonest" and "deceived" I am as a Mormon, which has nothing to do with the information I've presented.Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-49728056171862172952009-10-21T22:19:12.319-07:002009-10-21T22:19:12.319-07:00"Only you would think that that statement mea..."Only you would think that that statement meant becoming gay."<br /><br />"And only you would actually think that I thought that is what you meant."<br /><br />Your comebacks just keep getting better and better ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-53954505153274380002009-10-20T21:19:01.246-07:002009-10-20T21:19:01.246-07:00"Only you would think that that statement mea..."Only you would think that that statement meant becoming gay."<br /><br />And only you would actually think that I thought that is what you meant.<br /><br />"Read it again and think harder."<br /><br />Or be more careful with your word choices.Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-39541042097004315102009-10-20T17:46:03.574-07:002009-10-20T17:46:03.574-07:00"Maybe the day when you and Bob come out of t..."Maybe the day when you and Bob come out of the closet and leave Mormonism"<br /><br />"So, I have to go gay to leave Mormonism? No thanks."<br /><br />Only you would think that that statement meant becoming gay. Read it again and think harder.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-83275848947472685302009-10-19T17:53:33.033-07:002009-10-19T17:53:33.033-07:00"Thanks for the link. Frankly, the response i..."Thanks for the link. Frankly, the response is beyond weak. With all due respect to Dr. Lane Craig, his style is to brush over the issues he chooses to ignore."<br /><br />Kind of like you do, Bob?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-66953336224166033922009-10-19T10:21:15.850-07:002009-10-19T10:21:15.850-07:00"He is showing people the truth about the Mor..."He is showing people the truth about the Mormon church"<br /><br />Hence, Bob's "obsession" with Shawn. He is hoping to free people from Shawn's "lies and bondage."<br /><br />"Are you understanding this Latter Day Saints?!?"<br /><br />I love the extra ?s. Gets the point across so much more...<br /><br />"he would realize the truth about his faith and leave it"<br /><br />Well, if that isn't evidence, I don't know what is.<br /><br />"Wow, you are pretty arrogant."<br /><br />Wow...ok.<br /><br />"They are very talented musicians."<br /><br />And that makes them intellectual heavyweights how?<br /><br />"I think you are jealous"<br /><br />Appeal to my motive all you like.<br /><br />"Maybe the day when you and Bob come out of the closet and leave Mormonism"<br /><br />So, I have to go gay to leave Mormonism? No thanks.<br /><br />"be on his show and bless him with your divine presence"<br /><br />Actually, I think it would be better if Shawn let Bob on his show NOW and go head-to-head. Don't you?Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-73977630185410629812009-10-18T21:56:38.227-07:002009-10-18T21:56:38.227-07:00"I wonder why Shawn is obsessed with Mormons...."I wonder why Shawn is obsessed with Mormons."<br /><br />Shawn has actually told people why he does his show. He gets this question all the time. I think what he is doing is great. He is showing people the truth about the Mormon church so that they can be freed from the lies and bondage that they are in and find faith and freedom in Christ.<br /><br />In the eyes of God, Joseph Smith committed a very serious sin. It says it best in Deuteronomy 18:<br /><br />But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.<br /><br />Let me write that last bit again:<br />AND THAT PROPHET SHALL DIE<br /><br />Are you understanding this Latter Day Saints?!? That is God's wrath. Joseph lied in God's name and he was destroyed for it.<br /><br /><br />"You just said Bob seemed "obsessed." Obviously, he watches the shows."<br /><br />On the contrary, it's obvious he doesn't watch all the shows because if did, he would realize the truth about his faith and leave it.<br /><br /><br />"Well, with intellectual heavyweights such as Adam's Road as guests, who wouldn't be?"<br /><br />Wow, you are pretty arrogant. They are very talented musicians. I think you are jealous. Maybe the day when you and Bob come out of the closet and leave Mormonism, you can be on his show and bless him with your divine presence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-31040936497936328282009-10-18T03:07:08.063-07:002009-10-18T03:07:08.063-07:00"I wonder why this is."
I wonder why Sh..."I wonder why this is."<br /><br />I wonder why Shawn is obsessed with Mormons.<br /><br />"You should watch all of his shows."<br /><br />You just said Bob seemed "obsessed." Obviously, he watches the shows.<br /><br />"You will be enlightened."<br /><br />Well, with intellectual heavyweights such as Adam's Road as guests, who wouldn't be?Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-86778999300871703902009-10-17T03:00:55.152-07:002009-10-17T03:00:55.152-07:00Bob,
Are you "the Bob" from South Jorda...Bob,<br /><br />Are you "the Bob" from South Jordan?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-732061007295716802009-10-16T22:05:12.754-07:002009-10-16T22:05:12.754-07:00You seem to be obsessed with Shawn Mccraney. I wo...You seem to be obsessed with Shawn Mccraney. I wonder why this is. You should watch all of his shows. You will be enlightened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-49267607412109727212009-10-01T14:36:32.772-07:002009-10-01T14:36:32.772-07:00Relating to the whole "Burning Heart" or...Relating to the whole "Burning Heart" ordeal, I find it strange that our personal testimonies are dismissed so often by other Christians. Personal experience is the best way to obtain knowledge. I don't see how anyone can argue with this. Hence, it was number one on my list of reasons for my belief dedicated to my agnostic friend. Other posts and evidences will follow: http://walkstar.blogspot.com/2009/09/for-sean-personal-testimony.htmlWalker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-1219606284665821292009-10-01T14:24:33.067-07:002009-10-01T14:24:33.067-07:00"Oh I think it is clever the way you pick and..."Oh I think it is clever the way you pick and choose what will be on your sight...But that is typical of a mormon to cherry pick what proves you think proves you are right." <br /><br />What a load of nonsense. Technically, if we are going to be intellectually honest, everyone cherry-picks to support their bias. The interesting thing is, however, that Joseph Smith taught there was a divine council of gods, with the Father at the head in the mid-1800s. About a century later, ancient texts containing such doctrine are discovered and revolutionize scholarship in Old Testament and early Israelite studies. Coincidence is rather hard to swallow. But Bob did a fine job of critiquing the article as well as providing plenty of respected non-LDS scholarship. I discuss this same issue in a recent letter I wrote to a local pastor. I posted it here: http://walkstar.blogspot.com/2009/08/letter-to-local-pastor.html<br />It is under the section "The Divine Council."<br /><br />"open your eyes man you are blinded by your feelings"<br /><br />What an arrogant, intellectually shallow response.Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-11851692350836202732009-09-22T07:13:24.669-07:002009-09-22T07:13:24.669-07:00Ok, John boy, you have the stage. Tell me what to...Ok, John boy, you have the stage. Tell me what topic you want me to address? Be detailed. On condition: You have to respond to it. For all I know, you have your PhD in Biblical archaeology, so feel free to play to your strengths. But point out where you think I have dodged. Since I specifically responded to the Dr. Craig material, I am anxiously waiting for your critique of what I appear to be ducking. I think dialog is helpful, and examining issues is to be embraced, because, at the end of the day, <br /><br />MORMONISM IS TRUE, SO I DON'T FEAR THERE MIGHT BE SOME MAGIC STATEMENT PROVING IT FALSE. COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.<br /><br />Are you willing to change your mind, or in the blog of your mind do you just ignore content you find objectionable, or do you search with an honest heart to know what is true? As a convert to Mormonism, I can guarantee you I have an open mind, but it is filled with lots of research, so I don't believe folks like Dr. Craig, or Hugh Nibley, without checking their sources. Dr. Craig's presentation is demonstrably incorrect and weak, and unsupportable from independent sources, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. So man-up here, and stop being a critic and get into the conversation. You can steer this, if you really feel I am doing it an injustice. <br /><br />You have the floor.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-44884038547881249672009-09-12T14:08:27.484-07:002009-09-12T14:08:27.484-07:00Oh I think it is clever the way you pick and choos...Oh I think it is clever the way you pick and choose what will be on your sight. You must be moved by what I said to you. But that is typical of a mormon to cherry pick what proves you think proves you are right. open your eyes man you are blinded by your feelings<br /><br />JohnQuest for Passagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01244119732854866910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-7757532294570936742009-09-12T12:58:06.356-07:002009-09-12T12:58:06.356-07:00Thanks for the link. Frankly, the response is bey...Thanks for the link. Frankly, the response is beyond weak. With all due respect to Dr. Lane Craig, his style is to brush over the issues he chooses to ignore. Case in Point: Exodus 32:8-9. He quotes the Masoretic text, that text codified by the Jews in the 10th Century AD, 900 years after Christ. That is the point. Christ was seen as a "another God" (Justin Martyr, Dialog with Trypho, 50:1).<br /><br />Dr. Craig fails to address the fact that the 70 sons issue is actually a non-issue, since the original text, as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, calls them "sons of god", not "sons of Israel". He is flatly wrong when he says it is not in the Hebrew (see page 191 "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible", Translated by Martin Abegg, et al, 1999, Harper Books. This is widely available, so easy to check.) The Revised English Bible translates the passage as "sons of god". The NRSV takes creative license and says according to the numbers of the "gods".<br /><br />Dr. Craig's work on Creation Ex Nihilo has been thoroughly critiqued by LDS philosopher Blake Ostler in FARMS Review 17/2. It is instructive in pointing out a pattern of avoiding dealing with all the evidence to try to make his case.<br /><br />Lastly, his discussion about Melchizedek as the priest of God Most High is interesting for, again, what he leaves out. See Margaret Barker's excellent and insightful December 2008 paper on the subject at http://www.templestudiesgroup.com/Symposia.htm#I . There are actually several papers on Melchizedek there, so go hungry.<br /><br />I appreciate the link, but Dr. Lane's response is actually too weak to be realistically considered helpful, in my opinion. He would have to actually deal with the evidence against Biblical Monotheism as original, which he does not.<br />Thanks,<br />BobBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-5309588018623392942009-09-11T20:00:36.098-07:002009-09-11T20:00:36.098-07:00If you're interested in a fairly strong and th...If you're interested in a fairly strong and thorough rebuttal of your stance on ancient Israelite polytheism, follow this link: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7110Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-49966526812748480532009-09-08T07:00:57.959-07:002009-09-08T07:00:57.959-07:00A case where the traditional Hebrew Text of the Ol...A case where the traditional Hebrew Text of the Old Testament was changed to remove an obvious plurality of gods is found in Deut 32:8-9, in which "sons of the most high" is changed to "sons of Israel". The Dead Sea Scrolls brought this out, and it has always been present in the Greek LXX, but was considered a corruption into Greek...until the DSS were discovered to support the plurality of divine beings.<br /><br />You can check out Michael Heiser's webpage for starters:<br />http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/<br />He also was invited, as a non-LDS expert scholar, to expound on the subject in FARMS Review of Books: http://mi.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=643 A couple of great quotes out of this article: "1. The plural "elohim" of Psalm 82:1, 6 are divine beings, not human judges or humans fulfilling any role.<br /><br />2. The term monotheism is inadequate to describe what it is Israel believed about God and the members of his council. As the text explicitly says, there are other "elohim"."<br /><br />Other non-LDS scholars whose work is considered impeccable and virtually unassailable in explaining historic Hebrew polytheism include Mark Smith ("The Origins of Biblical Monotheism"), Raphael Patai ("The Hebrew Goddess"); Frank Moore Cross (Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic"); Keel & Uehlinger ("Gods, Goddesses and Images of God"); and Bob Becking, et al ("Only One God? Monotheism in Ancient Israel and the Veneration of the Goddess Asherah"). Still scholarly but more controversial would be Margaret Barker's "The Great Angel"; Penchansky's "Twilight of the Gods"; and William Dever's "Did God Have a Wife?". Each of these texts is elaborately documented. I would start with Smith or Cross, but any of them are excellent.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-12756974050858362022009-09-07T11:00:34.629-07:002009-09-07T11:00:34.629-07:00Would you be so kind as to explain the part about ...Would you be so kind as to explain the part about Old Testament Hebrews being polytheistic?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com