tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post5654282792324746056..comments2023-08-02T02:26:21.785-07:00Comments on Anti Anti-Mormons: Cowardly LiarsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-6923127052619636572010-01-14T11:00:28.119-08:002010-01-14T11:00:28.119-08:00Cody quoting me: "This is rich: the anti-Morm...<b>Cody quoting me: </b><i>"This is rich: the anti-Mormon double standard on display for all and sundry to see. Now, if ANYONE can provide written or audio PROOF of Bob actually making the "Santa's broken toys" statement, I'd like to see or hear it. What we have so far is Shawn CLAIMING that Bob said it, and all you Shawn fans taking his word as gospel."</i><br /><br /><b>Cody's response: </b>Let's hold the BoM to these standards. Show me some PROOF. All I hear are Mormons CLAIMING that it is true. "The Spirit told me it is true. I KNOW this church is true." Ring a bell?<br /><br /><b>My response: </b>Cody…I’m surprised that you didn’t see the flaw in your statement. Why don’t we hold the Bible to the same standard you just placed on the Book of Mormon? Show me some PROOF. All I hear are Christians CLAIMING that it is true. You see, my claim that the Book of Mormon is true does not damage the character of some other person. Shawn’s claim that Bob made the “Santa’s broken toys” statement, <i>does</i>. And no, it didn't "ring a bell" because you are trying to make a case for apples and pickles being similar, when there is no such case to be made.JediMormonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05368528162776585795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-59245611358685517342010-01-02T03:05:14.943-08:002010-01-02T03:05:14.943-08:00Cody,
Please. Martin Harris throughout his life r...Cody,<br />Please. Martin Harris throughout his life referred to himself and the 2 other witnesses in his account, since they were together and were the first to see the plates, and the only ones to see the Plates and the angel and the other artifacts. He repeated that testimony dozens of times. It does not exclude the Eight Witnesses. In fact, Harris in one interview, included, incidentally in Vol. 2 of Vogel's group of interviews of Harris, notes that the testimonies written in the BoM are exactly true.<br /><br />More to the point, those other 8, not 7, witnesses are nowhere "recanting" their testimony, as Anonymous claimed. No where. Harris states adamantly on several occasions that none of the Three Witnesses ever recant. I am still waiting for that "proof" they recanted.<br /><br />As I have also previously noted, the assertion that Brigham Young asserts that some of the Witnesses recanted is actually rebutted by the talk from which the statement by Brigham is twisted out of context by the Tanners, and repeated by so many people. He obviously did not mean the printed statements by the Witnesses, since none of them were ever Apostles.<br /><br />Which begs the question, again, Why do you critics of the LDS Church constantly accuse the Apologists of the LDS Church of being unreliable and deceptive, and when we PROVE the Tanners are lying and deceiving people with their presentation of facts, you critics STILL trust them as reliable? <br /><br />Is it just me, or is this a pretty obvious double standard?<br /><br />Thanks for the comments.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-86704454628737626812009-12-31T12:11:37.265-08:002009-12-31T12:11:37.265-08:00I would just like to throw this quote in.
Martin...I would just like to throw this quote in. <br /><br />Martin Harris said, "These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdery, myself, Joseph Smith, Jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them (Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 306)."<br /><br />That still leaves 7 people off of your list. Is 7/11 close enough to two thirds?<br /><br />Cody DCody Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-34047715762447749362009-12-31T00:37:43.557-08:002009-12-31T00:37:43.557-08:00Anonymous,
I suppose it is too much to hope for th...Anonymous,<br />I suppose it is too much to hope for that you actually read the information provided in the various posts and responses on this blog. But couldn't you at least check your completely unfounded accusations. So here is the list, which ones recanted:<br />David Whitmer<br />Martin Harris<br />Oliver Cowdery <br />Christian Whitmer<br />Hiram Page<br />Jacob Whitmer<br />Joseph Smith, Sen. <br />Peter Whitmer, Jun.<br />Hyrum Smith<br />John Whitmer<br />Samuel H. Smith <br /><br />This should be rich.<br /><br />I must concede, there is an idiot website out there which claims the witnesses denied their testimonies. Literally, from a historical research standpoint, should be considered a very bad prank. Each and every one of the men on the list went to their graves testifying of the reality of the Book of Mormon, and their witness being true.<br /><br />The single biggest misrepresentation is that they had seen the plates ONLY "with a spiritual eye". Not true. When Martin Harris learned his testimony was being assaulted because of an interview he gave, he made sure to explain that he had in fact handled the plates with his hands and they were as real and tangible as any physical object, and he had seen them with "these eyes".<br /><br />So come on. You said two thirds, which is about 7 or 8 of the 11 witnesses.<br /><br />Bring it.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-23693365651745646682009-12-29T18:48:50.868-08:002009-12-29T18:48:50.868-08:00What Walker fails to mention is that two thirds of...What Walker fails to mention is that two thirds of the witnesses ended up leaving the church and recanting what they said. Interesting. I don't see the witnesses in the "Santa's Broken Toys" case, recanting their story or leaving (and bad mouthing) Alathea ministries for that matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-74133069014262992542009-12-29T13:46:30.937-08:002009-12-29T13:46:30.937-08:00"Well, everyone wanted to hear from the witne..."Well, everyone wanted to hear from the witnesses of the conversation. The gold plates had 12 witnesses who never denied their testimony."<br /><br />Oh yeah, all the ones who said they saw them spiritually? Right!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-67453332417765996752009-12-29T07:35:09.122-08:002009-12-29T07:35:09.122-08:00"Let's hold the BoM to these standards. S..."Let's hold the BoM to these standards. Show me some PROOF."<br /><br />Well, everyone wanted to hear from the witnesses of the conversation. The gold plates had 12 witnesses who never denied their testimony.Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-68838442054059221482009-12-28T22:18:36.814-08:002009-12-28T22:18:36.814-08:00"This is rich: the anti-Mormon double standar..."This is rich: the anti-Mormon double standard on display for all and sundry to see. Now, if ANYONE can provide written or audio PROOF of Bob actually making the "Santa's broken toys" statement, I'd like to see or hear it. What we have so far is Shawn CLAIMING that Bob said it, and all you Shawn fans taking his word as gospel."<br /><br />"Let's hold the BoM to these standards. Show me some PROOF. All I hear are Mormons CLAIMING that it is true. "The Spirit told me it is true. I KNOW this church is true." Ring a bell?"<br /><br /><br />Excellent point Cody!JDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-52398157777177118632009-12-28T18:02:45.200-08:002009-12-28T18:02:45.200-08:00JediMormon,
"This is rich: the anti-Mormon d...JediMormon,<br /><br />"This is rich: the anti-Mormon double standard on display for all and sundry to see. Now, if ANYONE can provide written or audio PROOF of Bob actually making the "Santa's broken toys" statement, I'd like to see or hear it. What we have so far is Shawn CLAIMING that Bob said it, and all you Shawn fans taking his word as gospel."<br /><br />Let's hold the BoM to these standards. Show me some PROOF. All I hear are Mormons CLAIMING that it is true. "The Spirit told me it is true. I KNOW this church is true." Ring a bell? <br /><br />Cody DCody Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-66797342619646469692009-12-25T12:07:47.734-08:002009-12-25T12:07:47.734-08:00Sebastian,
I am married to the smartest woman in t...Sebastian,<br />I am married to the smartest woman in the world. Unfortunately, she is not married to the brightest guy in the world.<br />Merry Christmas.<br />BobBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-32457199278382220312009-12-24T19:36:38.463-08:002009-12-24T19:36:38.463-08:00"as my wife says, just negative energy"
..."as my wife says, just negative energy"<br /><br />The title of your blog is "Anti Anti Mormons" and you are just now realizing that attacking the detractors of the church is going to breed negative energy?? Boy, you learn quickly!Sebastiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-70506871370165247002009-12-24T15:09:34.178-08:002009-12-24T15:09:34.178-08:00In any case Bob, thanks for showing McCraney's...In any case Bob, thanks for showing McCraney's arguments for what they are. "ya done good"Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03960519151863517265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-71403188259991639382009-12-19T21:37:32.858-08:002009-12-19T21:37:32.858-08:00"some random name (which I think one or two p..."some random name (which I think one or two people are doing with a few different names to make it appear as though they are many)"<br /><br />Good observation there Einstein. You're a smart one!JDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-24575000303240833762009-12-19T21:27:43.865-08:002009-12-19T21:27:43.865-08:00OK Bob, we'll let you keep your dignity.OK Bob, we'll let you keep your dignity.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-27837420541341924882009-12-17T22:38:53.565-08:002009-12-17T22:38:53.565-08:00Bold, Bob. That is good though. Negative energy is...Bold, Bob. That is good though. Negative energy is never good. That is why I quit posting in several forums. <br /><br />Nonetheless, expect an onslaught of accusations.Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-80509748704669206122009-12-17T21:15:21.422-08:002009-12-17T21:15:21.422-08:00I think your wife is a smart lady.I think your wife is a smart lady.Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-20323753082556445882009-12-17T20:46:57.258-08:002009-12-17T20:46:57.258-08:00Everyone,
I want to get this behind me. I simply...Everyone, <br />I want to get this behind me. I simply cannot believe I ever would say, in a context derisive of all the people in attendance at Shawn's presentation, that those people are "santas' broken toys". But I am not perfect, and since I don't have contact with Nathan or Kevin very often, and I have no plans to seek them out to visit with them about specifically about this issue, when I do see them I will apologize to them for creating this impression, if they in fact have this impression.<br /><br />To the folks on this page, I likewise apologize for any statements which are harsh and unChristian. <br /><br />While I will continue to deal with apologetic issues, Shawn's so-called ministry and the firewalls he has installed to avoid dealing with actual issues of doctrine is, as my wife says, just negative energy. It is a pit, and I will no longer be sucked into this.<br /><br />So, as I say, moving on. I am going to just stand down on Shawn's stuff. Besides, there are many other issues which probably have more value generally. My experience is that the folks who watch Shawn's show who are negative about the LDS faith, stay negative. Those who are not, see it for what it is. I personally know folks who have been misled by things they have learned on Shawn's show, but attacking Shawn is not the correct path. Shawn attacks himself when his arguments are held up to historic truth and Biblical analysis.<br /><br />So, I am signing off of this issue.<br />Thanks,<br />BobBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-8348063245198669362009-12-17T09:32:09.060-08:002009-12-17T09:32:09.060-08:00This is rich: the anti-Mormon double standard on d...This is rich: the anti-Mormon double standard on display for all and sundry to see. Now, if ANYONE can provide written or audio PROOF of Bob actually making the "Santa's broken toys" statement, I'd like to see or hear it. What we have so far is Shawn CLAIMING that Bob said it, and all you Shawn fans taking his word as gospel. To be honest, I don't put much stock in Shawn's ability to get the facts straight. Years of dealing with anti-Mormons have taught me that almost every one of them will lie when it suits them, especially if they believe that the lie will con someone into leaving the LDS church. Harsh words, I know, but that's what experience has shown me. Now, if you folks can come up with some "proof" other than "Shawn said this" or "Shawn said that", you'll have my ears (or eyes, as the case may be). <br /><br />Your move.JediMormonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05368528162776585795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-60834977016540208572009-12-17T07:52:25.502-08:002009-12-17T07:52:25.502-08:00It appears that context is the key.It appears that context is the key.Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-3644340649431382862009-12-16T23:33:12.078-08:002009-12-16T23:33:12.078-08:00That is a sample of notes taken by me during the m...That is a sample of notes taken by me during the meeting, as the statements were being made. Thus it is literally impossible that I would say the room was a bunch of "santas broken toys", since my contemporaneous notes show there was a huge spectrum of LDS believers to ex-LDS nut cases all in one box, with Shawn saying things like:<br />""I think the [LDS Leaders] are puppet masters, getting what they can out of them [the non-LDS]" Was addressing how Greg Johnson of Standing Together Ministries [is being used in] talking with LDS leaders".<br /><br />Again, that is right out of my notes taken during Shawn's presentation. I found the statement silly, and the person asking the question who is foolish enough to believe the answer a koolaid drinker. There were those type of folks in the room. But as my notes clearly show, I would never have characterized the whole room as "santas broken toys". Nor as "the dregs of society". Did I make a joke or statement about some of the crackpots, or make a statement about the folks finding faith? I have no idea. But it is simply impossible that I would characterized the entire audience as "santas' broken toys". My notes literally prove I did not think that at the time. Which is why I insist that any assertion to the contrary is a gross misrepresentation of what I said in its context.<br /><br />Thanks for writing.<br />BobBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-3366179942741422192009-12-16T23:27:23.917-08:002009-12-16T23:27:23.917-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-16633407835446633222009-12-16T23:27:07.300-08:002009-12-16T23:27:07.300-08:00Mike,
You may have spoken with both of the witness...Mike,<br />You may have spoken with both of the witnesses, but I haven't, and if they are saying, as Shawn said my attitude was, that I was looking down my nose at (using Shawn's phrase) "the dregs of society", I will challenge them as to both how they remember the statement and the context of the statement. I am copying below some of the direct quotations I wrote in my notes during Shawn's presentation at the Church. I don't know what you asked. I respect both Kevin and Nathan. But I stand by my statement that I never made a disparaging statement of all those people as "santas' broken toys". The conversation before the food arrived, as I have previously written, was about the fact I was happy for the folks who don't find comfort in their LDS faith, and go elsewhere, because they will return eventually to the fold. And if I made fun of some of the anti-Mormons, which I don't deny is possible, I don't apologize for that. But I would never, ever characterize everyone in a room, filled with a mixture of active LDS, inactive LDS, ex-LDS and non-LDS as a bunch of losers. It is absurd on its face, given Nathan was sitting across from me, that I would insult him and everyone else there. <br /><br />Here are a couple of comments by people in attendance at Shawn's meeting, as written in my notes:<br /><br />"Another guy, seeker of absolute truth, joined LDS Church two years ago, believes LDS who worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Finds no contention. Loves Shawn."<br /><br />Do you think I would call him one of "santas broken toys" in a derisive manner?<br /><br />Merle--[friend of Shawn's and active, believing LDS]--(responding to comments by Shawn and a lady named Cambria)Why use the word "deception"? States he "is LDS".<br /><br />So I would call him "santas' broken toys"?<br /><br />David Jensen--Christian from South Central L.A., Belongs to Calvary Baptist Church. Every day he fights his human side and turns to Jesus for help. Says, "If you can love, you're good."<br />[Made no negative comments about the LDS]<br /><br />However, there was a lady, the last questioner, who said she "sees lots of oppression with their [LDS]family. Shawn replied "That is the demonic nature of Mormonism." "The Church puts people in bondage." "That is totally what I believe." "Being a Christian [in Salt Lake City] is harder than being one in Mecca."<br /><br />Those are ridiculous statements, in my opinion, by Shawn and the lady.<br /><br />Earlier a man, ex-LDS, took Shawn to task for not being more adamant that if you are converted you must leave the Church. Said Shawn:<br />"If [I] said the born again Mormons must leave the Church, then he would cut out half of the audience."<br /><br />This led to an interesting observation by Shawn that "A guy with the 1st name beginning with 'J', has begun infiltrating the Mormon ward" he lives in. At dinner Shawn elaborated that this guy is trying to lead active LDS out of the Church by pretending to be a believing Mormon.<br /><br />Would I think some of these people are nuts? Yes, no doubt. Would I believe the whole room is a bunch of nuts and "santas broken toys"? Not a chance. <br /><br />(continued below)Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604900070308099497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-73718347424316247592009-12-16T18:57:25.757-08:002009-12-16T18:57:25.757-08:00I guess since there are witness’s the story must b...I guess since there are witness’s the story must be true. So, using this statement as a measuring rod I know another story where the testimony of witness’s was called into question.<br /><br />Something to think about.<br />MaddogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-53174020565538783072009-12-16T17:33:59.273-08:002009-12-16T17:33:59.273-08:00If Mike's right, an apology is expected, Bob. ...If Mike's right, an apology is expected, Bob. <br /><br />I got your back with Mormon teachings, but if you were wrong, just say so. <br /><br />But I will await your own contact with the witnesses.Walker Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648863351382695638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6999280.post-71634234731966248022009-12-16T12:08:39.346-08:002009-12-16T12:08:39.346-08:00I have personally spoken with the two witnesses an...I have personally spoken with the two witnesses and they both corroborate Shawn's story. Sorry Bob!Mikenoreply@blogger.com