Ain't Got a Heart in Real Matters

What should one conclude from a person who yells the Mormons tell lies, but when confronted with evidence his own statements about LDS doctrine are inaccurate, runs and hides? Here is how the email exchange with Shawn McCraney, host of Heart of the Matter, finished up. Since he has responded by using one-word answers, it clearly isn't that he lacks time to respond. It is something else. Whatever that something else is, it apparently justifies in his mind ignoring his own promises to interact with LDS theological positions. This is how Mormoninfo.org, Josephlied.com, Witforjesus.org, Aaron Schafovaloff and Onelivingtruth.com have likewise ended. I am not trying to brag, I just want to point out that when challenged to provide sources, especially from scripture, to defend their positions, most conversations stop like a tank in mud. Shawn is no different, but that should tell those folks wondering about the LDS position's viability when put head-to-head with anti-Mormon "experts".

_________________________________

From: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 2:15 PM
To: RV
Subject: Re: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

redundant


_________________________________
From: RV Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 05:37 PM To: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Subject: RE: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

Aw, schucks. Yep, your super intellect and insight has won me over. When can I join your cult? Those are great answers. Very Christian. I want to be just like you, if this is the converted, improved version which brought your daughter to tears on the show.

I can't imagine what you were like before you found religion.

Bob

_______________________________
From: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:39 PM
To: RV
Subject: Re: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

Stop.

________________________________
From: RV
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:22 PM
To: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Subject: RE: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

Engage the issues as you challenge and insist you will. You're the one who came at the Mormons, who call our leaders liars, our testimonies false, our conversions mostly a delusion. I provided a factual, document based response to your false teachings about the Mormons, and you don't have the courtesy to respond in any cogent manner, despite your web page and even your email auto-respond saying you will.

If you are in fact saying "stop" because you will not answer, I will make sure that message gets out. I think it speaks volumes about your "expertise".

If you mean stop because I mention your manipulation of your daughter on television, then I would suggest you not pull your beautiful children into a forum and ask them questions designed to evoke an emotional response.

Since you refused to answer from the first email I sent, I am just curious if you evade all substantive questioning? Where can I find responses to my questions if you don't actually mean you will answer questions emailed to you? Why do you challenge people to respond to the "truths" when you do not actually interact with honest presentations of facts? All of these questions go to the heart of the matter of your actual motives. You can be whatever you want, but don't pretend to be a champion of truth if you refuse to interact with official LDS doctrine in favor of sensationalized opinions.

There is a pithy answer to this:

Integrity.

Peace,
Bob

_________________________________
The response since then is just his auto-response, which as the previous emails all show, is not true:

__________________________________
From: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:22 PM
To: RV
Subject: From your friends at Born-Again Mormon

Thank you for writing. I will try my best to answer your email but due to the amount of emails we receive, it may take upwards of four or five days. Please know your comments do matter to us and we will address them as soon as time permits. [Emphasis added to a statement which is false.]

In Christ Jesus,
Shawn McCraney
Born-Again Mormon Ministries

Born Again without a Desire for Truth

Many people are uninformed about LDS doctrine, including, or maybe especially, ex-Mormons who cite their membership for their authority in matters of doctrine. Don't let their ignorance of actual doctrine deter their zeal to attack their former faith.

I sent an email last night to the owner of Born Again Mormon detailing two serious doctrinal errors he was discussing on his show, Heart of the Matter. I took about 3 hours to gather authoritative quotes, review doctrinal statements and provide them in an orderly and un-insulting manner. I post the entire exchange below, so that you can see the response. Once again, if by their works we shall know the true disciples of Christ, I am glad to live among the Mormons.

I love these responses. They show what truth really means to people. Shawn's comments are particularly funny because his web site invites a thorough discussion of LDS doctrine. You can see what his definition of that is below. By the way, much of the content about the nature of the birth of Jesus I quoted is available at this blog in an earlier posting. There is a fellow obscessed with the subject to whom I responded, and who, I will add, now avoids discussing the issue when I am around. Funny how truth throws water on peoples attack fire. So for complete details, please see below.

Keep the faith.

_________________________
Email 1

From: RV
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006
To: shawn@bornagainmormon.com,
Subject: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

Your information about the LDS views of the birth of Christ is wrong. I can prove it, I prove it constantly when anti-Mormons bring it up, I have it posted on a website and I have a little brochure on the subject which I personally researched from scratch. The fact you quote statements such as Orson Pratt's to represent LDS doctrine is very disappointing when you so loudly beat your chest on the show about LDS not knowing their own doctrine.

Go to http://www.promormon.blogspot.com/ if you want to get a doctrinally accurate review of the subject. Or just keep doing what you are doing. Maybe someday I can get through onto the air.

One of the funniest lines ever said to me by an anti-Mormon was "Just because you know the scriptures better than me, doesn't mean you are right!" I felt that way watching you brow beat the lady that called in to try to present an LDS perspective. Most LDS do not study their scriptures with an eye toward defending their faith. They read for spiritual food. They don't read to prove anyone else wrong, so most are at a significant disadvantage when they encounter people crusading to crush their faith. And then the person attacking their faith feels superior because their victim cannot quickly respond. That woman did not call in to pick a fight, but to try to help explain the LDS position. How long would you have left her on had she responded to every one of your attacks with Biblical passages?

By the way, bring the "Adam Fell Upward" statements. Let's make sure we read the entire context. Since this world is equivalent to the Telestial Kingdom, and Adam fell from the equivalent of the Terrestial Kingdom, this will be interesting to see you make the case that Mormons believe this life is a better existence than where Adam and Eve left. Yes, we exist. No, this is not a nicer place. Context matters, which you seem to generally ignore in LDS beliefs. Ironically, there is far, far less consistency of beliefs in "the Body of Christ" as you define it, yet you unfairly ignore those differences. The ridcu [sic]

N.L. Nelson, Improvement Era, May, 1922:"...we should realize without the need of scriptural assurance, the fact that Adam fell, that we are all fallen. No fact could possibly be more emphatic than this. Let us next proceed to examine this "fall" in terms of the essential attributes of matter. Summed up we shall find that it means a kind of imprisonment; and that salvation means fighting our way outward and upward to freedom."

Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrinal Commentary on the pearl of Great Price, page 266-7 "Second, he [Adam] fell from that glorious state and thereby suffered a spiritual death-a withdrawal of the divine powers of God's glory from himself and the earth.

Moses 6:48 48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.

Elder Russell M. Nelson, Constancy amid Change, Ensign (CR), November 1993, p.33 While I do not fully understand all the biochemistry involved, I do know that their physical bodies did change; blood began to circulate in their bodies. Adam and Eve thereby became mortal. Happily for us, they could also beget children and fulfill the purposes for which the world was created. Happily for them, “the Lord said unto Adam [and Eve26]: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden” (Moses 6:53). We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise. Accordingly, we could speak of the fall of Adam in terms of a mortal creation, because “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).27

Elder Dallin H. Oaks, “The Great Plan of Happiness”, Ensign (CR), November 1993, p.72 It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).

Elder Orson F. Whitney., Conference Report, April 1908, Outdoor Meeting., p.87 By the transgression of our first parents, the human race fell into a pit, and there was no help, and no hope, this side of heaven, for the race could not redeem itself. Man cannot be honest enough, nor virtuous enough, nor truthful enough, nor benevolent enough, to save his soul. That is why the Gospel was provided, as a means of salvation, and it had to come from above. No part of that which was under condemnation could be used as the means of redemption. Adam and Eve, with their posterity, were under the curse, and it was the curse of eternal death,-death spiritual, death temporal,-never-ending banishment from the presence of God.But the Son of God came down from the Courts of Glory, and offered Himself as a sacrifice, a ransom. He was not under the curse; He had not fallen; and His life could pay the debt. It could be used as the means of the world's redemption; and it was so used, and thus He became the Author of life and salvation to us all. He was the first fruits of the resurrection, and He declared: "Because I live, ye shall live also."He let down the ladder into the pit, and bade those who desired salvation at His hands, to climb. They were not to plead their own merits, nor rely upon their own strength, but were to use their powers in climbing up by the way that He had provided. The first round of the Gospel ladder is faith in God; the second round is repentance from sin; the third round, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and the fourth round, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Fall was not an improvement for Adam and Eve; it was a necessary step which was a transgression. They were ordered to reproduce, yet did not. There was time to disobey the "Don't eat the Fruit" commandment, which logically means they must have also had time to fulfill the other commandment, yet could not. So they had to figure out how to keep the greater commandment. It brought about mankind's existence. The proof is Gen. 4:1; Adam knew his wife Eve, and conceived Cain. This is literally their first act after being cast out of the Garden. Are you aware of the symbolism of the fig apron? If they are in the Garden for who knows how long, you are going to call it a coincidence they are given fig aprons and are immediately pregnant? They were naked in the Garden, and reproduction did not occur to them. It required them to become as the gods, knowing good and evil, to be able to reproduce.

Bring on your strong reasons. Your whole assault on the LDS Fall tonight was pretty unfair.

Peace,
BV

___________________
Email 2

From: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006
To: BV Subject:
Re: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

Spin.

_____________________
Email 3

From: RV
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006
To: shawn@bornagainmormon.com,
Subject: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

Oh that all complex issues could be solved with a word. I will make sure this response is added to my blog. Truly classic.

Bob

_____________________
Email 4

From: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:14 AM
To: RV
Subject: Re: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006


They can, Bob. The word is Jesus.

_____________________
Email 5

From: RV
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 09:11 AM
To: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Subject: RE: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006


Pithy, just false.

Like the things you taught last night on the LDS doctrine of the Virgin Birth and the Fall of Adam.

Peter, Paul, James, John and even Jesus must have all missed your memo. Be prepared to give an answer to every man, but in humility and respect. 1.1 million words in the Bible apparently missed the memo too.

False doctrine is to be resisted. The Bereans were blessed for being more studious of the scriptures in reviewing Paul's teachings. In effect, you are saying you should be held to a lower standard of truth than Paul was in his day. I don't care about being right, I care about truth. I have even admitted to my anti-Mormon friends when I have made a mistake. I thought if you really believe truth matters, you would at least be open to examining you may be in error. However, nothing is harder to open than a closed mind, which explains a lot about your apostacy from the LDS Church. I would leave the Church too if I believed all the false things about the Church you insist we do. Your concept of baptism, salvation, the Godhead and the Virgin Birth are all in error, so I understand why you were never converted.

I have dealt with hundreds of addicts over the years, and nothing is scarier than stripping away falsehood and looking honestly. I am not saying you are an addict, but I am saying you live in a world where the falsehoods you preach seem to be feeding your zeal. You have a zeal, it is just not after knowledge, which is what I was trying to say. Your scholarship on baptism and God as a spirit are particularly poor, and the only reason you could take those kinds of positions is if you really don't care about reading the Bible with understanding. Any current Greek grammar would nullify your position, yet I heard you again repeat the false statement that John 4:24 says god is a spirit. It doesn't. It's a mistranslation (which you asked the LDS lady for an example last night) which NO modern translation supports, even those based on the King James Bible's Greek text. So why do you keep citing it? A skeptic of your motives might think it is because it is in the King James Bible which Mormons use, and they would not know to appeal to a correct translation. I don't know your real reason. But truth cannot live with deceit.

Does truth matter?

Bob

_________________________
Email 6

From: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:57 PM
To: RV
Subject: Re: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006


Boring.

________________________
Email 7

From: RV
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:27 AM
To: shawn@bornagainmormon.com
Subject: RE: Tuesday's Show Oct 24, 2006

Facts may be boring, but pithy, factless responses are both useless and hypocritical coming from the man stating as his mission: "We ... seek to confront and help remove any doctrines which demand anything more than faith in Jesus Christ for salvation."

I guess that doesn't apply when your assertions are demonstrably false. It is boring when self-appointed experts repeatedly misrepresent LDS doctrine. I much prefer missionary work to apologetics. The Lord commanded Joseph Smith in D&C 71 to confront the enemies of the Church who mislead non-LDS. The revelation concerned an apostate member who published a mix of truth and falsehood. Sound familiar?

Enjoy your pithy party.

Bob

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

Confronting Confrontationalists

Confrontational Evangelism is the non-Biblical prideful justification for being a graceless goof.

You can see it in the street preachers fellowship, Rob Sivulka and many other people "with a burden to preach the Gospel" as rudely as possible.

Rob Sivulka, for example, has a video where he justifies his 'Gospel-free' technique of offending as many LDS people as possible. During the course of the video, he makes two particularly insightful comments which are totally lost on himself. He reads verses in Matthew and Mark about Christ attacking the Pharisees. It is completely lost on Rob that the Pharisees were in the Church of the day, the Jewish faith tradition. Christ attacked them for their hypocrisy in not caring to follow the teachings they taught.

Rob, on the other hand, attacks people he believes are not within the faith, and who sincerely believe and practise their faith. There is not a single example of Christ verbally assaulting anyone sincerely seeking to follow the truth. The woman at the well. Thomas. Zachias. He supped with sinners and tax collectors. Do you really think he sat there screaming? Even the gentile mother seeking help for her child he gently tried to turn away, and then granted her the request of her petition.

Paul and Peter likewise spoke lovingly, respectfully to sincere non-Christians and Jews. There was only sharpness for hypocritical Jews and Christians, who should have known better. The mayor of Ephesus notes that Paul never blasphemed their pagan gods (Acts 19:37), something Rob chooses to violate with virtually every breath and website, if in fact he believes Mormons worship false gods.

Lastly, Rob quotes Cecil B. DeMille, the famous director, who noted that panzy preachers did not emulate Jesus. Demille, quoted by Rob, notes Christ only attacked hypocrits "who made a travesty of his father's temple". That means false sheep entering the Lord's house and profiting from it.

Mormons and LDS missionaries and leaders are explicitly not to create an ecumenical relationship with other faiths. Mormons don't join councils of Churches where issues of faith are compromised. We never enter a non-LDS church building or congregation under any false pretense, as if we are not working to convert them.

It is enlightening to hear Rob's stories of people who have come out of Mormonism. I have corresponded with several of those people. They are largely ignorant or bitter for social reasons.

I hope Rob keeps up the confrontational method. It makes the difference so clear, that only the weak-minded and uneducated fall for his lies. I know of examples when ex-Mormons learn the Truth, they return to the faith. Wouldn't it be cool if he posted those messages.

Rob has a long history of avoiding actual intellectual exchanges where something more than an "everybody knows" suffices for documentation. I believe he demonstrates a pyschological need to feel like a victim. He loves feeling persecuted. He notes he revels in having people yell as they drive by "get a job" or "shame on you". Another typical example of Rob's bankrupt reasoning. People in cars who comment, while Rob is usually yelling at Mormon passers-by, probably will not be heard using their chapel voices, will they? Now they should probably not say anything, but considering Rob confronts several hundred thousand LDS people each year, why is it surprising that newcomers to the faith may feel a need to respond. At least they did not follow Peter's example and try to cut off his ear. I have spoken with Rob numerous times, and he literally collapses under the weight of his false sources and poorly researched and poorly reasoned positions. I fear this sounds boastful, but it is also true. Ask him why he says Mormons won't literally interpret Acts 7:55-56? I have a great picture of him SCREAMING at the top of his lungs, calling me a liar, when confronted with actual false statements from his own web site.

Most Mormons don't get a background in Bible history, linguistics, or comparative religion. Mormons don't attack other faiths, and Rob counts on that ignorance. He noted that he would not continue discussing the LDS faith with me because I would eventually resort (because I never had) to comfort in my testimony, rather than arguing the facts. This from a guy who never once quoted an entire verse of scripture and explained its context. IN fact, up to a few years ago, on his entire website I counted only two or three verses of scripture quoted. He normally says something like "the Bible teaches (verse whatever)", never actually quoting the verse. Scripture and scholarship is poison to anti-Mormons. Arguing from the scriptures, Mormonism never can lose. Arguing from "everyone knows" allows falsehood to reign supreme.

To some, this may seem confrontational. It is intended to be analytical. Sometimes it takes more than a slogan to actually address falsehood, so please understand the need to provide supporting examples.

April 2006 Conference Review

There were many great speakers, but probably 3 anti-Mormon events I wish to touch on.
1. I spoke with a lot of "King James Only" adherents. In a word: Lost souls. They have been pumped full of bad facts and crippled logic. In effect, they believe that magically (no really!), the King James Translators made the perfect translation of scripture. All scripture. Nothing is left out, nothing to be added. No contradictions are in it either. So I provided them an absolutely unresolveable contradiction: 2 kings 24:8 and 2 Chronicles 36:9. The King Jehoiachin is 18 years old when he becomes king in one version, 8 years old in the other. They are otherwise perfectly parallel accounts. It is obviously a scribal error in 2 Chronicles. No matter, one error is an error, and it means their doctrine is false. I have about 100 others, but it makes the point. (On a side note, one of the young people I spoke with actually said that the King James Bible should be translated into other languages, rather than the best Greek texts in use OR even the original texts used by the King James translators. Everyone scratch your heads.)

2. I had the chance to meet with a man who was truly mentally ill. Now, before too many jokes fly, in some ways we all are a little unique. In fact, I think based on the irrational indifference for the teachings of Christ by most street preachers, a case can be made a lot of those guys are suffering in some form of delirium. But this poor fellow was genuinely mentally ill, and just could not control his anger or aggitation. But for the grace of God, there go I. The cool thing, in my view, is that I suspect he falls into the same category in the after-life as little children who are unaccountable. He is just not able to help himself.

3. Just as I was leaving, I ran into Aaron and Stacia. Aaron is a likeable follower of reformed theology who fancies himself a missionary to Mormons. His beautiful wife is about 5 months pregnant with their first child. They had brought her parents down to see Temple Square, and they stopped to ask me some questions. Stacia's mom, whose name I cannot recall, was very nice, but she became progressively more animated and wound up just walking away because she felt I was telling her blasphemous doctrines out of the Bible. Here is the irony. They had asked me, after bouncing quickly along such topics as baptism for the dead, proper worship of God and Christ, the New Testament basis for Spirit Prison and Paradise, can salvation occur strictly through faith or is obedience necessary, and what role the Trinity has or has not in the New Testament; all in about 15 minutes, she then said "I understand your faith teaches that Christ and Satan are considered siblings of some kind". So I said yes, this is what the Bible teaches, but before we get into that, this will take longer than 1 minute to resolve, so are you willing to spend the time. She pressed that she wanted to know, and said she could not believe any such thing. I asked her if Jesus himself had a spirit. She replied that he had the Holy Spirit, which he shared with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Here is where I made my mistake. I should have done this in a Socratic style, and simply pointed out scriptures and asked questions. I won't make this mistake ever again. But instead I told her that while Christ shared in the Holy Spirit, he had his own Spirit. She literally lost it at this point, telling me this was blasphemy and unscriptural and she was going to walk away. I told her it was in fact in the scriptures, and if she cared to see the verses, I would be happy to provide them. Having confounded Ron McRae the day before on this exact topic (he is the director of the Street Preachers Fellowship, the unChristian sign toting protest group), I was certain I could make the Biblical case. But I mis-judged how upset this nice lady would get at having some of her basic beliefs confronted by the truth of scripture. Big, prideful mistake on my part.

At this point she walked away. Her husband politely said thank you, shook my hand, and dutifully followed his wife, as I would have mine.

Here is the problem for her as a Trinitarian Christian. Her statements put her right in the category of defined heretic according to Traditional Christian theology. Her expression is a modified Modalist. The Father is the Son is the Holy Spirit. In this case, the Son is the Holy Spirit shared by the Father. Worse still, though she clearly had just recently read John 14, as she cited it several times, she professed to be unfamiliar with Christ's admonition that we must endure to the end to be saved (Matt 24:13; Mark 13:13). Every Gospel account indicates Christ has his own spirit, separate and apart from the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:16; 4:1; 12:18; 12:32; 27:50; Mark 1:10; 8:12; 15:37; Luke 3:22; Luke 4:1; 4:14; 4:18; 10:21; 12:10; 23:46; John 1:32; 1:33; 7:39; 11:33; 13:21; 14:26; 15:26; 19:30; Acts 4:8 shows the Apostles were indwelt with the Holy Spirit just as Christ was during His life.)

So, Stacia's Mom, you are just wrong. You were so sure you were right, and I was just up in the night. Hopefully you will someday be humble enough to let the missionaries walk you through the Gospel. There are answers to literally everything you asked, but I was stupid to think I could walk you through the scriptures in a public environment, and have the Spirit teach you while Aaron is doing drive-by insults of LDS doctrine. Again, I apologize, and I won't do that again.

Stacia's mom and dad both asked a question which I don't think they fully understand. They said "Can we be saved even if we never join the Mormon Church?" I told them it is really a non-issue, because we do the work for all people, so everyone will have the chance. But this is really the wrong answer. The right answer is much more sober: If this is the Church of Jesus Christ restored in our day, rejecting God's prophets, his ordinances and his inspired council, if such attitudes are taken into the next life, can only lead to something less than ultimate salvation. You cannot reject Isaiah, Moses or Peter, and say you believe in Jesus Christ. As it says in modern day revelation: "Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." (D&C 1:38) This is no different than what Moses said 3,000 years ago:

Deut 30:2
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

Without an open mind, it is impossible to hear the Lord's voice.

See you around.

Someone Needs to Get Married I Think

Once again I was accused of being dishonest over the issue of whether God and Mary had sex.

First, I don't really care, one way or the other. Honestly, God can do no wrong, and since I believe Jesus was His only begotten son in the Flesh, the mechanics are irrelevant to me.

OK, that being said, the Church does not have an official position on the mechanics. Here is what Elder Harold B. Lee said in 1969. He was the 2nd most senior apostle after President McKay and President Smith. We have a very clear statement speaking directly upon this subject:

Teachers should not speculate on the manner of Christ's birth. We are very much
concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of
teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.
You asked about the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about sexual intercourse between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject in Luke 1:34-35: "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
Remember that the being who was brought about by [Mary's] conception was a divine personage. We need not question His method to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until He sees fit to tell us more. (1/2/69)

Seems pretty clear. One would think Harold B. Lee would know the official position of the LDS Church. He is clear in saying more specific statements than this are personal speculation on the part of the authors.

Talmage teaches thus:

That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the Highest.' We Believe That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof;
...Miracles are commonly regarded as occurrences in opposition to the laws of nature. Such a conception is plainly erroneous, for the laws of nature are
inviolable. However, as human understanding of these laws is at best but imperfect, events strictly in accordance with natural law may appear contrary thereto...
...True, the event was unprecedented; true also it has never been paralleled; but that the virgin birth would be unique was as truly essential to the fulfillment
of prophecy as that it should occur at all. That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the "Son of the Highest." ... (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ: A Study of the Messiah and His Mission According to Holy Scriptures Both Ancient and Modern, p.77.)

So you have Talmage calling the birth of Jesus a "Miracle" and "unprecedented", and beyond human understanding, and still I hear people say Talmage is saying God had sex with Mary. Please, there is nothing unprecedented, miraculous or unknown about how a child comes forth from sex. Moreover, he called her "Mary the Virgin" (page 87).

A brief study of the word "conceive". We find it in Luke 1:31: "to become pregnant; conceive." Mary is said to be conceiving in her womb. That is the normal place. Is there any implication of sex?

Last point: I have pointed this out previously. The Seer, published by Orson Pratt, was thoroughly denounced by the LDS leadership and Church, including Orson Pratt, as a work which should never be considered LDS. Here is what it says:

"But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or parts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed." Signed the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, INCLUDING Orson Pratt, its author. Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865.

Only a person of extreme ill-will toward the LDS Church could attempt to use anything out of the Seer. And without co-publishing the Church's denunciation with it, one is left to wonder about the ethics of such a person or group thus involved.

Sixteen years after Harold B. Lee's comments, Bruce R. McConkie published his final book. He wrote the following in explaining the Virgin Birth:

"The mortal Jesus, as a man among men, had both a father and a mother. God was his Father, and Mary was his mother. He was begotten by a Holy Man, by that God whose name is Man of Holiness; and he was conceived in the womb of a mortal woman. Mary, a virgin of Nazareth in Galilee, was "the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh." (1 Nephi 11:18.) She was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost; "she was carried away in the Spirit" (1 Nephi 11:19); she conceived "by the power of the Holy Ghost," and she brought forth a son, "even the Son of God" (Alma 7:10). That Son, who is called Christ, is the Only Begotten, the only offspring of the Father born into mortality. As a man, as God's only Son, his only mortal Son, he overcame the world." Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 1985, Deseret Book, Chapter 9, pg 74:

While Br. McConkie's explanation could still be interpreted as implying sex, it clearly does not REQUIRE that meaning. And frankly, Elder Harold B. Lee's statement still would be controlling, since he is limiting his statement to official doctrine, whereas Br. McConkie was publishing his opinion. General Authorities are allowed to have opinions, they just are not allowed to say they are official doctrine. Reading the inside cover of Elder McConkie's book will indicate what his writing was.

Enough for now. The LDS Church is true. I love these cute little diversions. Don't discuss the big things. Look at the churches who cannot decide if we are all predestined robots, if baptism is essential, if good works really matter, or if the doctrine of the Trinity could be any more flawed, but we spend time discussing the method of impregnating Mary. What a waste of time. The sad thing is that the person most concerned about this will argue regardless of what the official position of the Church is. This is the best he can do to show his perception of inconsistency, because he doesn't allow the LDS Church to define itself. He has a standard he has created, and since the Church does not conform to his criteria, he keeps chasing his tail. Let me issue this challenge: The official Church website at www.LDS.org. Find the doctrine that God had sex with Mary. You can find the Church's views on baptism, salvation, priesthood. If this is such a big deal, find it there. Then drop me a line. Otherwise, try and tackle something which is real next time.

Peace.

The Death

In discussing Paul, the question of what did Paul mean when he said in Acts 22:4 he had persecuted Christians to "the death". One opinion offered said it meant cutting off heads with swords or similar implements.

While that sounds good(?), not really accurate. According to BDAG, the 2000 3rd edition of "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament", commonly called BDAG, the Greek word is thanatos, and means "The termination of physical life, death", and then in citing the passage says of the phrase: "persecute even to death" (italics in the original).

So here are some other sources:


Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
And I (oß). I who, literally. This Way (tauthn thn odon). The very term used for Christianity by Luke concerning Paul's persecution (Acts 9:2), which see. Here it "avoids any irritating name for the Christian body" (Furneaux) by using this Jewish terminology. Unto the death (acri qanatou). Unto death, actual death of many as Acts 26:10 shows. Both men and women (andraß te kai gunaikaß). Paul felt ashamed of this fact and it was undoubtedly in his mind when he pictured his former state as "a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious (1 Timothy 1:13), the first of sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15). But it showed the lengths to which Paul went in his zeal for Judaism.

This is what Acts 26:10 says: "This I actually did in Jerusalem, and I locked up many of the saints in prison, since I had received authority for that from the chief priests. When they were put to death, I cast my vote against them."
So he did not actually, physically kill them, but consented to their death.

I checked two other lexicons I have at home, and 3 online commentaries and the Crosswalk.com lexicon as well. Nobody seems to know about the word meaning anything except death. It is common English usage to say for example "they fought to the death".

I hope this clears this up.

Crybaby Evangelism

Forget Friendshipping. Forget confrontationalism. Go straight to Crybaby Evangelism (CBE). CBE is practised by an elite group of two or three Evangelical groups who are unable to see the fruits of their actions. Reading the newsletter of one self-absorbed "evangelist" (sic, gag), they become a power unto themselves and feed on the attention. As I have challenged various anti-Mormon or non-Mormons to defend their assertions against Mormonism, inevitably it eventually devolves into an attitude by the attackers of "Don't waste your time on him, he knows his facts." Every general conference, one of the CBE practitioner's will tell people not to speak with me because "he is just trying to waste your time." Since the last time I checked this CBE practitioner does not believe in receiving revelation, so he is simply falsely judging me. Yup, that is what this boils down to. Hypocrits who cannot deal with the truth.

So I will keep talking to all of the people who want to talk. But you folks in CBE land, keep it up. Every respectable and knowledgeable Christian missionary has figured out the CE and CBE does not work, and there is literally nothing as funny as reading or listening to their self serving justification for being un-Christian. "Everyone is mean and needs to leave me to my form of evangelism!" WAh, Wah, Wah.

This is funny. Hand them a pacifier. Of course, the word pacifier has it root in the word "peace", which was the message of the Savior. Which is why it is obvious whose team the CE and CBE evangelists are on.

Peace.

Is it Time to Declare Victory for the Mormons Yet?

I have been discussing TULIP with Leroy. We have been on T for Total Depravity of Man since we started in April. It has been since May 31 since Leroy responded. I hope he is well. I suspect, however, that he has moved on to less difficult venues. After all, Romans 5:18 and the other verses discussed proved Justification is given to all men. It is both explicit and directly to the discussion of "who is justified". Everyone is Justified by Christ, however only those who obey him will retain complete Justification once in heaven. Again, Hebrews 4:9 is likewise explicit and direct: "And being made perfect, [Jesus Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." Not exactly ambiguous.

So Leroy, if you want to push ahead, I am still here. I recently acquired several books by Mr. James White on Justification and salvation by faith alone. He doesn't address the verses in Romans, Genesis, Hebrews, 1 Timothy, John or elsewhere either. He falls back to "the entire context of scripture...must be considered." In other words, 'I can't explain why Paul writes these things which contradict my theory, but I can show you this other verse that works with my theory!'

Many is free. God is great. Godliness is the destiny of the obedient from among mankind. The Mormons have it correct.
Peace.

So "U" Believe in Tulip: Unconditional Grace Examined

Like most concepts, there is some truth in the concept of Unconditional Grace, but monergism distorts the concept by the severe application of pre-destination. Here is what Leroy says of Unconditional Election:

U: For the purposes of God, in accordance with His Holiness and perfection, and for reasons that His creations will not know on Earth, beginning before the foundation of the Earth, God the Father chose the sheep and elected them, without any regard to anything but His own glory and purposes, that they would be born again and gain the inheritance of Jesus in righteousness.U: Unconditional election and Unrelenting election and Undeniable election and Unsuperficial election

U: Gen. 18:17-19, Deut. 4:35-38, Deut. 7:6-8, Deut. 10:14-15, Deut. 14:2, Deut 18:4-5, 1 Chron. 28:4, Psa. 33:12, Psa. 78:67-71, Psa. 100:3, Psa. 135:4, Isa. 40:23, Isa. 41:8, Isa. 44:1-2, Isa. 45:4, Isa. 65:9, Jer. 1:5, Jer. 27:5, Jer 31:35-36, Matt. 11:27, Matt. 20:15, Matt. 22:14, Matt. 24:31, Mark 7:21-23, Mark 13:20, Luke 6:45, Luke 18:7, John 1:4-5, John 5:21, John 8:43-44, John 13:18, John 15:16, John 15:19, Acts 9:15, Acts 10:41, Acts 22:14, Rom. 7:5, Rom. 8:29, Rom. 8:33, Rom. 9:11, Rom. 9:13, Rom. 9:20, Rom. 11:5, Rom. 11:7, Rom. 11:24, Rom. 11:28, Rom. 13:1, Rom. 16:13, 1 Cor. 1:27, Gal 5:17, Eph. 1:4-6, Eph. 1:11, Eph. 2:8, 1 Thes. 1:4, 2 Thes. 2:13, 2 Tim. 1:9, Titus 1:1, James 2:5, 1 Peter 1:1-5, 1 Peter 1:20, 1 Peter 2:4-10, 2 Peter 1:10, 2 John 1:13

U: God said and knew and made who would be saved and who would go to hell before ‘time’ began. God chooses when, how, and why someone gets saved by His grace alone.

I find a couple of things interesting with this aspect of the doctrine of monergism. First, of all, most doctrines which require blind faith in a concept articulated by men are generally false. This is true of the doctrine of the Trinity, and it is true of the idea of 'unknowable' election by God. Repeatedly scripture teaches that salvation is declared and offered to all men, regardless of when they lived or who they are.

Paul himself declared that he had declared all mysteries (Romans 11:25, 16:25-26; 1 Cor 4:1, 13:2), but he is actually quite specific in explaining that salvation's mysteries have been revealed to the chosen (Eph 1:9), and that specifically the understanding of the doctrine of predestination or foreordination of the elect is now known. The word "mystery" means something which was hidden, but is now revealed. The idea of God pre-chosing the elect, and specifically having some elect versus some non-elect is about God choosing Israel as the vehicle of salvation
Romans 11:2-7:

2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the
scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: 3 Lord, they
have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left
alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I
have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise
grace is no more grace. 7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he
obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

The rest of us are grafted into the vine if we also believe (Romans 9:4,11,20-33, 10:1).

It is also interesting that there are two usual mistakes made by monergists in interpreting the Bible which leads to misapplying scriptural passages on election. First, they don't understand the historical background of the scriptures in Romans 9. Romans 9 is written by Paul to explain to the Jewish congregation how election applied to the non-Jewish members of the congregation. Specifically the description of the clay is a reference to Isaiah 45 and Jeremiah 18:6.
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
This is as clear and direct a citation as one can find anywhere in scripture. The clay analogy is not about individuals, and God selecting specific individuals for salvation. It is about God selecting a channel, the children or nation of Israel, as the means for blessing the world with the promises and covenants he made to Abraham (Gen 17:5-8; 18:17-19).

Furthermore, the most commonly cited passages on God drawing only specific individuals to him, and indeed cited at monergism.com as proof of specific election, are verses John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65. Again, it is a very poor piece of scriptural study which stops at these verses. John wrote the Gospel of John with the intention people must read the entire Gospel. You cannot fully understand John 20-21 if you fail to study John 1. Likewise, John 6 is explained and fulfilled in John 17.

6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
17:6 "I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Literally every element of John 6 is fulfilled in John 17. The whole point of who would be drawn to Christ was about those who would come to him during his mortal life. That is a huge interpretive error.

Absent John 6 and Romans 9, which I have shown to be incorrectly interpreted by monergists, I find no passages which even remotely support the doctrine of Unconditional Grace.

Peace.

TULIP and Monergism by the Letters: T is for Total Depravity of Mankind

In discussing the monergistic (i.e. Calvinistic) approach to dealing with and contrasting the differences in beliefs between Mormons and monergists, I think it best to let monergists speak for themselves in terms of what they believe, and the scriptural basis for those beliefs. Leroy, a frequent visitor to this blog, has volunteered his own writings as a source of material to describe and defend the monergistic perspective. He has a web page here which describes his understanding of monergism, and gives some "prooftexts" to defend his perspective.

Monergism was formally articulated by John Calvin in the 16th century. Though its followers may assert the doctrines to be the original message of scripture, Calvin is recognized as the person who created the first comprehensive and systematic presentation of the doctrine in its current recognized clarity. A definition of monergism from monergism.com is as follows:

Monergism (monergistic regeneration) is a redemptive blessing purchased by Christ for those the Father has given Him (1 Pet 1:3, John 6:37, 39). This grace works independently of any human cooperation and conveys that power into the fallen soul whereby the person who is to be saved is effectually enabled to respond to the gospel call (Acts 2:39, 1 Cor 1:2, 9, 24, Rom 8:30 John 1:13, Acts 13:48). It is that supernatural power of God alone whereby we are granted the spiritual ability and desire to comply with the conditions of the covenant of grace; that is, to apprehend the Redeemer by a living faith, to come up to the terms of salvation, to repent of idols and to love God and the Mediator supremely. The Holy Spirit, in quickening the soul, mercifully capacitates and inclines God's elect to the spiritual exercise of faith in Jesus Christ (John 6:44, 1 John 5:1). This instantaneous and intensely personal work of God is the means by which the Spirit brings us into living union with Him.

Here are now Leroy’s comments from his web page, without editing of content, though I did have to paste several comments on the page together to get all of the T content:

T: For the purposes of God, in accordance with His Holiness and perfection, and for reasons that His creations will not know on Earth, beginning with the fall in original sin and the spiritual death of Adam and Eve, no one has been willing or able to do anything in accordance with righteousness. Everyone has inherited the spiritual death through Adam and is a natural enemy of God who does not seek God in spirit or truth and will not love God of his or her own natural will. We are dead. Our works are dead. Our philosophies, systems, desires, and imaginations are dead.

T: Total depravity and Total inability and Total unwillingness and Total reliance and Total dependence

T: Gen. 6:5, Gen. 6:11-12, Job 15:14-16, Psa. 14:1-3, Psa. 51:5, Psa. 58:3, Psa. 143:2, Prov. 5:22, Prov. 14:12, Prov. 20:9, Eccl. 7:20, Eccl. 7:29, Eccl. 9:3, Isa. 1:4-6, Isa. 44:18-20, Isa. 44:25-28, Isa. 48:8, Isa. 53:6, Isa. 64:6-7, Jer. 4:22, Jer. 9:5, Jer. 13:23, Jer. 17:1, Jer. 17:9, Matt. 7:18, Matt. 7:23, Matt. 12:34-35, Matt. 15:13, Mark 10:26-27, Luke 8:11-12, John 1:13, John 3:3, John 3:19-20, John 3:27, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 15:5, Rom. 1:18-32, Rom. 3:9-23, Rom. 5:12, Rom. 7:14, Rom. 8:5-8, Rom. 9:8, Rom. 11:8, Rom. 11:32, Rom. 14:23, 1 Cor. 2:14, 1 Cor. 15:21-22, Gal. 3:22-23, Eph. 2:1, Eph. 4:17-19, Phili. 2:13, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, Titus 1:15, Heb. 11:6, James 1:14, James 1:17, James 4:17, 1 John 2:16

T: Only by being set free by the Spirit can we freely will and act in righteousness. Regeneration precedes faith. Faith always follows regeneration. You must be born again to receive saving faith and no one is saved without faith. The unregenerate are under the law of sin and death and, making choices out of their own free will, never please God. They cannot believe because they always choose not to. Rebirth happens in an instant for the elect and is the sovereign act of God.

Let it never be said I did not try to be as supportive as possible of presenting the other side’s position. Of course I disagree with the premise that simply because men are capable and have committed sin, they are incapable of feeling the Spirit or choosing right or wrong.

The fundamental teaching of the Fall was that men are able to discern right from wrong, as the god’s are likewise able to do. Quoting God:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23).

This point will be the basis of all argument by me. Namely, unless you can show me from scripture where God is quoted as saying, more or less,

“Behold, the man is NOW become UNLIKE one of us, he no longer knows good and evil”,

then scripture is explicit saying we do know good and evil. Emphasizing the lasting nature of that ability to choose, God has man driven into the world with that knowledge, to protect him from partaking of the Tree of Life and living forever. Until a Savior could be sent, if Adam were to live forever in his fallen state, he could never be brought back into the presence of God (1 Cor 15:21-22).

Such a change in doctrine, namely that man somehow lost his ability to discern good and evil, would require a definitive, authoritative exposition on the order of the change from the Law of Moses to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Or of circumcision of the flesh for circumcision of the heart. It must be a definite, contextually equivalent statement of superordination . I make this point explicit because it is not enough to simply say that we deduce such has happened because of our interpretation and application of certain verses of scripture.

This is where you will find me a highly conservative scriptural warrior. Time and again I encounter people who protest or criticize the LDS Church for various reasons, but when you try to get them to produce a cogent, Biblically based defense of their own position, they respond with theology, and then read the scriptures in light of their theology.

Such a position for me as an LDS believer in continuing revelation through the Holy Spirit and modern day prophets is actually defensible. I don’t see the scriptures as the only word on doctrine or theology. Even so, I am starting with the first definitive statement in the Bible on the will of men, their ability to choose good and evil, and I am laying down the gauntlet: Show me in scripture where this was changed, or admit monergism is a rational development based on a scriptural interpretation, and not a Biblical imperative.

If scripture is to be interpreted as the only authority in the area of theology, then your theological position must flow from precise statements of scripture, not your understanding of scripture from theological statements. If the Bible is the source, theology should just be a systematic explanation of what is, not the other way around.

So Genesis 3:22-23 is the place to start, in my mind.

Paul’s statements of “none do good” (Romans 3:10-18) or are righteous, or fear God must be understood in the context of Genesis 3:22. As I hear evangelicals so often say, use scripture to interpret scripture. Unless there is a definitive statement rebuking the agency of man, then Paul is writing in a clear understanding that men can choose to do good or evil, regardless of their fallen state. Likewise, looking beyond Paul's citations from the Old Testament to the actual scriptures he cites, it is clear from the scriptures that these are not saying there are not people capable of doing good, but rather that fallen man cannot save himself. Read Ecclesiatestes 7, Psalms 14, or Psalm 53; Psalm 5, Psalm 140, Psalm 10, Isaiah 59 and Proverbs 1, (Psalm67?) and Psalm 35. These are the most likely source verses for Paul’s quotations in Romans 3. Every one of the chapters, while making some blanket statements about there are no righteous or other such statement, also clearly says there are also righteous and good people out there.

On the other hand, Leroy cites Gen 6:5, 11-12 as support of the Total Depravity of man. Yet right there, right in the heart of the statements Leroy cites is this statement about Noah: "These [are] the generations of Noah:

Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God." (Gen 6:9)

So even though it says that every imagination from the heart of men was evil (vs. 5), Noah, a man, was just and perfect, and even walked with God, whatever that means. In other words, there are still non-wicked people among mankind, and there is no teaching saying the evil being done was by monergistic nature versus their choice. Since we have no statement undoing Gen 3:22 yet, Biblically I have to think the author of Genesis is in effect telling us the people are choosing evil. This would seem to be a more scripturally consistent reading in light of 1 Peter 3:20 where those people of Noah's day are said to have been "disobedient", which clearly means they made a choice to do evil. In fact, the word Peter uses for “disobedient” means to resist being persuaded and to not obey. Again, it sounds like a choice to me, and in light of the context of Genesis 6, it seems to fit the text better than to assert they were evil because they were fallen and incapable of choosing to obey. According to Peter, they refused to allow themselves to be persuaded from their evil. (BTW, we will go through each “proof text” individually to verify their context and merit, and present those discussions for the reader.)

Paul was not teaching we cannot do good. He was teaching we do not have the ability to save ourselves. In Rom 3:19 he says the whole world is guilty of sin because of the Law. But in verses 22-24, Paul makes this statement about for whom Christ’s righteousness is applied:

22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Notice the two classes for whom Christ’s righteousness is applied:

1. Unto all

2. Upon all that believe

Why? Because as concerning sin, there is no difference whether you believe or not. As verse 23 reminds us, “All have sinned”. This is the restatement of Romans 2:11

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

If God forgave some sins simply because of a random, unknowable criteria, then he would be a partial god, and in my view, a fallen god. He would be unjust. It would be the moral equivalent of “hate crimes” legislation, even though the transgression of the Law of Moses was about deeds. ‘Thou shall not’… types of statements, and when you did, you transgressed the Law. There was no penalty for not feeding the poor, and the standard for that was not laid out. You gave tithes and offerings, or you burned at the Lord’s coming. These were actions. Thus Paul also teaches (Romans 2:13-14) that when the gentile did by nature those things contained in the Law of Moses, they became a Law unto themselves. Transgressing those elements of the Law so discerned meant they committed an act of sin. Doers of the Law of Moses were Justified, and it was impossible to keep every element of the Law perfectly.

Paul then teaches that because of Christ’s atonement for the sins of the whole world, all are justified (Romans 3:30). But he teaches that there are two types of faith working for Justification: The faith of the believer, which allows him to remain Justified, and the faith of Christ on behalf of the rest of the world. If after being justified by the Faith of Christ, the world casts him aside, then are they truly punished for actively rejecting the Savior, breaking the rules Christ instituted for the reception of saving grace. But they made a choice, or else Christ is a respector of Persons, not giving all an equal chance for salvation.

Mankind is fallen, and has a nature which wars against the things of God. But since the Fall, mankind is also able to discern Good and Evil. It is a false paradigm, in my view, to say on the one hand I am free any time I want to turn my car to the right, and then give me a care which is only capable of turning left or going straight. If man is incapable of comprehending or choosing good, he cannot be held accountable for the bad he does. But if he can choose good, then he must be able to obtain the same results as any other person potentially can obtain, or else God is a respecter of persons. God can certainly set the rules, and the fact he even provides for rules to be created is a great act of grace on his part.

In my opinion, TULIP would fall solely based on the false nature of this tenet of their theology. Sadly, all five elements of TULIP are false constructs, creating a net, as it were, of self-referencing false doctrine. Within the body of this post we can explore the supposed scriptural support for both points of view.

What say you?

Peace

Grace and Justification Defined

Don't roll your eyes just yet sports fans. Sometimes we need to be very basic to communicate accurately. Two terms that constantly seem to be pitted against Mormons by our non-LDS friends and critics are Grace and Justification. It is often asserted that Mormons are dealing with a different vocabulary than the rest of Christianity. Well, if Christianity had a firmly defined set of meanings for all terms, it would make life easier. Sadly, there are many terms which are controversial, whether LDS or not. Because of a desire to move ahead discussing the differences in LDS and Calvinistic perspectives, I think it best I get some clarity of what Justification and Grace mean.

Justification, or to be Justified, has its roots in a Biblical word having to do with the legal status of a person. The Greek word dikaiosune and its cousin words (Strongs 1342-47) were used frequently by Paul and other New Testament writers, and is similar in meaning to righteousness, especially in a legal sense. So it lends itself very well to counter-positioning to the Hebrew Law (gr. Nomos) to illustrate the superiority of Christ to the Law of Moses.

The Atonement of Christ makes us right with God. Everyone is justified. But we retain the justification through our faithfulness. Everyone is therefore made righteous through Christ, but again that righteousness is retained only through obedience brought about by faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. So by justification we are taken back into the presence of God. Our ability to stay there depends upon our faith and actions towards obeying God. In the Book of Mormon we read:

Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection--Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. (Alma 40:11)

The ability to retain the state of grace in the presence of God and Paradise is determined by our actions in this life, and how we knowingly chose good or evil.

Grace is an interesting component of Justification. Grace has many definitions and meanings, and the exact meaning is dependent upon context. For example, God’s gift of creation is an act of grace not specifically earned by any of us.

The most common understanding of Grace in New Testament times was within the system of reciprocal giving of the Oriental and Occidental cultures. It was an act of grace to give something one was not obligated to give. It was almost a technical term to dispense grace, such as by a king or benefactor: “a beneficent disposition toward someone, favor, grace, gracious care/help, goodwill.” (See A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature; Third Edition, BDAG, 2000, U. of Chicago Press, entry Xaris, definition 2, page 1079, hereafter BDAG).

For example, by grace we are saved through faith, and not of the works of the Law of Moses. The fact the gift is given without obligation on the part of the giver, so it is not paid as a debt but as a gift, does not mean the giver cannot attach specific conditions or qualifications precedent and predicate to the gift.

Grace is generosity for something without merit. It is being given a Rolls Royce when all the money we have to pay with is $10. There may have been a for sale sign in the car window stating a price of $300,000. The seller took pity on the condition of the buyer, and grace was the difference. The gift is out of proportion and not earned, but that is not to say that there are not requirements to receive the gift. And he who gave the gift must still pay the cost of the gift, for to not do so would be theft and unjust. And even though the gift is given, it can be taken at any time should we violate the terms and conditions upon which the gift was given.

In the parable of the Kings Wedding Feast (Matt 22:1-14), all are invited to partake at the feast. Attendance at the actual wedding feast was Grace. Those to whom the servants (prophets and apostles) first went were the House of Israel. All were offered the invitation: They were justified. It allowed them to enter the Feast. Nothing was earned to get there. Responding to the calling is faith. The Wedding Garment is obedience. They had to come, and they had to be clothed in the wedding garment. The fact that all the people, good or bad, were invited and came means that all men are justified. Their obedience, including accepting Christ, was determinative in their salvation. For they were in the King’s Palace, but some could not stay. And Christ said this is how Heaven is.

While any parable can be pushed beyond its reasonable interpretive limits, it is hard to visualize a better word-canvas outlining the LDS doctrine of salvation. In the series of parables taught in Matthew 21-22, we see Christ describe the need for action and not just confession (21:28-32), the imminent giving of the channel of salvation to a new group because of the unrighteous works of the leaders of Israel (21:33-46), and the necessity of keeping the two great commandments. It is impossible to see how all of these teachings by Christ can be relevant if we believe God predestined some to salvation without regard to their worthiness. In the parable of the Wedding Feast, the Earthly actions of the invited determined whether they were worthy (22:8). Failing to respond, which is a lack of faith, disqualified Pharaseeic Israel. Even those who responded, entered the feast and were seated were not guaranteed of remaining. The whole world was invited, many came, and only a few remained. Therefore, many were called, but only a few chosen. We will certainly get to that.

I think from these definitions and passages, and comparing them to Paul’s specific teaching on the desire of God to save all men, and that Christ is the Saviour of all men, most of all those who believe,(1 Tim 2:4; 4:10) the New Testament destroys any sense that the atonement is limited to just a few people, or that God only wants to save a few of his children. The two verses in 1Timothy 2:4 and 4:10 are especially devastating to any attempt to limit 1 Tim. 2:4 to any particular sub-group and avoid the clear and obvious meaning of the verse. I look forward to discussing these verses and similar ones in great depth.

For those who do not enjoy a deep look under the hood of the scriptures, the next little while may be a solution to that insomnia you have been struggling with. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves pseudo-scholars and jump in with both feet. Based on past experience with Leroy, I am betting we will have a lively discussion, and that it is unlikely he will give up as others do as we roll out facts. It is my blog, so I can’t go anywhere. Besides, it is my sense from meeting and discussing things with Leroy that he is sincere about his desire to develop a deeper understanding of both his faith, and the LDS view of these important subjects as well.

Let the games begin.

Peace.

Are Mormons Atheological?

Recently it has been asserted by at least a few individuals, and one in particular who wrote into this blog, that all or virtually all Mormons are not interested in theological or spiritual issues, but are only culturally committed to LDS beliefs.

My response has always been that this is not upheld by social studies and indicative statistics, not to mention my own fairly broad and intimate, though certainly anecdotal experiences.

Well, the University of North Carolina just published a broad and probing in-depth study of American youth and their religious perspectives. Their results and conclusions are intriguing, to say the least.

In every meaningful measure of religious commitment, the LDS youth outstrip their non-LDS peers, often by staggering margins. Moreover, the study indicates that LDS families and Church support organizations are places where the youth study and discuss religious issues far more frequently than any of their peers. The study concludes by stating that so far as living and sharing their faith, and the positive results of dealing most effectively socialogically with the challenges faced by all youth, the LDS youth are faring best of all.

It is an amazing culture that breeds the kind of commitment found in LDS youth. For those of us who work with them, we know there are many who are committed and center upon the concept of 'coming to Christ'. Interestingly, the LDS faith is the only denomination whose members, as they become better educated, are more likely to remain faithful. Among Calvinists and all other religious groups, the better educated they become, the less likely they are to remain believing. That's not my anecdotal experiences. Those are scientific studies.

The ultimate irony of those who accuse the Mormons of being only culturally committed is that their own religious traditions actually rely on people remaining uneducated to remain believing. In other words, they must hope their flocks remain ignorant and uneducated, and therefore "atheological", whereas the Mormons want their people to be more educated to promote faithfulness. The charge of 'atheological-ness' among the Mormons is in fact 180 degrees off the mark. It is the need of those leveling such charges to pray for such a position within their own faith-tradition that their flocks remain uneduated, or else the pews will empty.

I was right. The charge of atheological Mormons was in fact a projection of the actual problems within their own faith. They apparently just assume since that goes on in their church, that is what happens in the Lord's Church. By their fruits, we do know them.

While pride will likely not prevent such gossip mongering from occurring in the future, (that is, false statements not based on anything other than hearsay and unfounded testimony) at least the facts are clear: Mormons not only are theologically oriented, but the more education and study they do, the more likely they are to believe and live their faith, something other denominations cannot say. But then again, Mormons are a peculiar people.

Peace.

The Real and the Unreal in Perfect Contrast

I very much enjoy the crop of Anti-Mormons who attend General Conference now. Their carnival-style barking, their unkind and unscriptural messages, their distortions and out-right lies about many points of LDS doctrine, and especially the spirit they create before Conference goers enter the Conference Center are all doing something the missionaries on Temple Square could only dream about: Creating the perfect contrast between the fallen doctrines of those the Church tries to help, and the Spirit of God within the institution of the LDS Church.

During the Sunday afternoon session of General Conference, Elder Oaks introduced his inspired remarks by comparing his assignment to that which Jacob had received from the Lord, noting he was similarly tasked. We sometimes forget there are 15 prophets, seers and revelators who lead our great Church. Their inspiration from our Heavenly Father through His Spirit cuts to the heart of the humble like the Bread of Life and the Living Waters, edifying and building. Their messages, as well as the other Conference talks, are spiritual nourishment for the next 6-months and beyond. Timely, topical help, I am grateful for their messages. They know whereof they speak (Alma 5:45-48).

The contrast between the confused, misled or just plain un-Christian street preachers and the LDS leadership is so clear, no one can miss the contrast. One of the anti-Mormons I spoke with, while he waived a pair of LDS garments, commented that no one converted to his point of view from his efforts, he simply saw himself as one who plants seeds. Like all the deceived, they don't realize that even the evil they blindly do leads people to God's only true and living Church, His Gospel and the Holy Ghost. Keep planting those seeds. If we were to stage such a scene in a movie, we would be criticised for being way too over the top, because no group could be so blind to see how they actually work to promote the cause they are attacking. And so it goes.

Although I would love for no anti-Mormons to be there, the ones we got are far better than the stealthy snakes we previously saw regularly. Just six more months until my next shot at the carnival.

Peace

Rob Sivulka Called Me A Liar: False Witness and a Liar is He

I had the chance on Sunday to try to visit with Rob Sivulka, of the paid anti-Mormon ministry Mormoninfo.org, (technically he gets paid through his donation channel at Utah Partnerships for Christ, another anti-Mormon ministry) to confront him about some of the lies he promotes on his web site. He refused to speak with me because he was too busy yelling at the Mormon faithful going to General Conference. So I couldn’t resist helping the public to understand Rob a little better.

I started to explain to the crowd that Rob teaches that Mormons are afraid to interpret Acts 7:55-56 too literally because it would mean Jesus was standing on Gods hand, possibly causing stretch marks. About this time a couple of people came out from lunch in time to hear Rob call me a liar, and catch it on film. I am hoping I can get a copy of it, and maybe submit it to Guiness, because I did not think it was possible a guy could scream, turn red and have a vein sticking so far out from his neck in a name calling fit, and still remain conscious. Here is what Rob’s official website says which I was relating to the crowd:

"Finally, why did Luke state that Jesus was "standing on the right hand of God" (King James Version, which is what LDS use)? LDS want to interpret this literally (i.e., God has a right hand as well as a left), but only to a point. They too must treat this figuratively in some sense otherwise Jesus would actually be standing on the Father's right hand, and then we'd wonder if Jesus left stretch marks on the Father's hand by doing this. LDS certainly don't go this far. "

This is a LIE!

I have researched in two separate LDS reference software programs, the official LDS.Org website, and just plugged the scripture into a Google search. No one of LDS beliefs seems to find the remotest possibility of this indicating God is having Christ stand upon his hand. In fact, in an earlier posting, I noted that Rob’s suggestion of Jesus standing upon the right hand of God is not supported by the Greek text nor the King James Version Bible language. It is and was a perfectly acceptable manner of speaking to say a person is standing on someone’s right hand, meaning directionally to the right. Rob may not know how to read Greek or King James English, but enough Mormons evidently do that they have never written on this absurdity.

Here are just a few LDS works which specifically quote or cite Acts 7:55-56 in the context of the literal standing next to God by Christ:

Bruce R. McConkie: Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol 2; The Messiah series, several texts.
Joseph Smith: Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
John Taylor: The Mediation and Atonement.
Joseph Fielding McConkie: Gospel Symbolism.
Hoyt W. Brewster, Jr.: Doctrine and Covenants Encyclopedia; entry Right Hand.
James Talmage: Jesus the Christ.
Sidney B. Sperry: Paul’s Life and Letters.
FARMS Review of Books: Review of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.
Lowell Bennion, Sunday School Manual: An Introduction to the Gospel.
Rulon T. Burton: We Believe.
LDS.Org: Dozens of citations of the reference, some sites including color pictures of Jesus standing next to (not upon) God.
The examples could be greatly multiplied, but where, Rob Sivulka, do you find any believing LDS author expressing a reluctance to cite Acts 7:55-56 because too literal of a reading would lead to questions about such things as stretch marks on God’s right hand from Jesus standing there?

This is simply a STRAWMAN. An argument which exists only in Rob’s mind and in no LDS circle. Rob presents the argument so he does not have to deal with the real issue of the illogic of the situation. Jesus is standing next to God. Not the Father. If the inspired author of Acts understood the meaning of the words he used, then I don’t care if God can appear as a bunny, (as Rob claims is possible as well), He is not next to himself. The language is crystal clear. But even if Rob’s opinion is that God can stand next to himself, or is a bunny or is too big to fit in a Temple, it is still not LDS doctrine or LDS fears that the verse could have a literal meaning of God is potentially getting his hand stretched. It has never been a fear or argument within the LDS Church the verses have reference to standing upon God’s hand if really pressed to the literal meaning of the words.

By lying about the dangers of the LDS position, Rob is trying to minimize the need to deal with the fact the LDS position is more Biblical and textually supported than the apostate Trinitarian position he supports.

In any event, it is a lie, a distortion and an utter mis-statement of LDS beliefs about the verses. Moreover, Rob has compounded the lie by publicly bearing false witness and slandering me by calling me a liar. Engaging in lies and distortion is always a slippery slope, and can lead to not knowing how to tell the truth. This weekend re-affirms what I said when I first encountered anti-Mormons:

IF the truth about the Mormons is so terrible, why lie?
Rob Sivulka, you are a liar, and a bearer of false witness. A Christian would admit it, try to make it right, and ask forgiveness. Not many people read my silly little blog, or even know who I am. But those who do will be watching to see the measure of the man you are.
Either way Rob, I can honestly say: I love you, I just hate the lies you tell about me and my faith. And unless you repent and get the Spirit in your life, you only have this to look forward to as the end of your lies:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part
in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

No one is saved who is an intentional, hurtful liar.

Please Rob, change before it is too late.
Peace

Some People are Not Overly Blessed with Attention to Details

I had a blast on Saturday at the opening day of the April 2005 General Conference. After the 2nd session I was verbally accosted by a fellow who is apparently incapable of understanding the fine details of LDS doctrine. Let's review what it takes for something to be "Official" LDS doctrine. First, it needs to be a revelation through the LDS Church President (D&C 28:2; D&C 42:11). Then it needs to be presented to the Church for "common consent".

Also official explanations of doctrine may be released under official First Presidency letterhead. Specific, binding revelation is presented to the entire Church. So I am pretty sensitive to being orthodox in my LDS beliefs. D&C 19:31 "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."

One of the undefined, though widely discussed, LDS beliefs is whether God had sex with the Virgin Mary. I personally don't really care. But...there are certainly statements by leaders of the Church, even some of the presidents of the Church, which may be interpreted on their face as suggesting, IN THEIR OPINION, God had sex with the Virgin Mary. But that is the whole point. It is simply their speculative opinion. Such a doctrine is not codified in any LDS scripture, anywhere. It has never been presented as the LDS doctrine in any official channel which defines doctrine. That channel belongs exclusively to the living President of the LDS Church while acting in the role of President, Prophet, Seer and Revelator. That statement does not exist.

Indeed, we have a very clear statement by Harold B. Lee from 1969 speaking directly upon this subject:

Teachers should not speculate on the manner of Christ's birth. We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.

You asked about the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about sexual intercourse between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject in Luke 1:34-35: "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Remember that the being who was brought about by [Mary's] conception was a divine personage. We need not question His method to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until He sees fit to tell us more. (1/2/69)

President Lee was 18 years old in 1917 when President Smith would have made the comment quoted in the 1972 FHE manual. He was president of the Twelve or the entire Church when it was published. Is it reasonable to think in light of his 1969 comment he would select a quotation which he felt directly and unquestionably taught that God had sex with Mary? Or maybe the comment really does just mean that through a process which is not explicitly explained in the quote, but instead focuses on clearly stating the physical sonship of Christ to the Father? My explanation is actually much more logical, especially in light of the changes in statements by Elder Bruce R. McConkie.

In the 1966 edition of Mormon Doctrine, the last edition which is reprinted, Elder Bruce R. McConkie makes a statement about the conception of Jesus which could be seen as indicating God had sex with Mary. But in his final statement on the subject before his death in 1985, in his book "A New Witness for the Articles of Faith", he wrote this:

"The mortal Jesus, as a man among men, had both a father and a mother. God was his Father, and Mary was his mother. He was begotten by a Holy Man, by that God whose name is Man of Holiness; and he was conceived in the womb of a mortal woman. Mary, a virgin of Nazareth in Galilee, was "the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh." (1 Nephi 11:18.) She was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost; "she was carried away in the Spirit" (1 Nephi 11:19); she conceived "by the power of the Holy Ghost," and she brought forth a son, "even the Son of God" (Alma 7:10). That Son, who is called Christ, is the Only Begotten, the only offspring of the Father born into mortality. As a man, as God's only Son, his only mortal Son, he overcame the world." Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 1985, Deseret Book, Chapter 9, pg 74:

This description is far less dogmatic, clearly not requiring a sexual relationship. Do you think the statement by Harold B. Lee may have had some impact? No speculation, just a careful restatement of scriptural references.

Clear statements by earlier leaders of the Church are often blunt in explaining God the Father was the father of the flesh of Christ. Those statements invariably arise at a time early in Church history, when the concept of God creating the body of Christ in any way other than sexually may have been beyond comprehension. The fact of such statements is nevertheless irrelavent, since such statements are the opinions of the Church leaders, and not accepted or established doctrine.

So if the good evangelical brother who took two hours to repeatedly call me a liar is reading my website, show up with some real proof next time, and put your 1972 Family Home Evening manual away. Then maybe stop trying to define LDS doctrine the way you want it, and instead read the actual, official statements of the Church. Joseph F. Smith in 1917 speaking unofficially does not count, even in a 1972 FHE manual. It was an illustration, and composed of his opinion. In an official comment in 1912, President Smith is far less emphatic about the need for a sexual relationship. That statement read:

It was our Father in Heaven who begat the spirit of him who was "the Firstborn" of all the spirits that come to this earth, and who was, also his Father by the Virgin Mary, making him "the only begotten in the flesh." Read Luke 1:26-35. Where is Jesus called "the only begotten of the Holy Ghost?" He is always singled out as "the only begotten of the Father." (John 1:14; 3:16, 18, &c) The Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and her conception was under that influence, even of the spirit of life; our Father in Heaven was the Father of the Son of Mary, to whom the Savior prayed, as did our earthly father Adam.

That was an official statement by the First Presidency, signed by the entire presidency, in 1912. Definitely does not require God to have had sexual intercourse with Mary. But feel free to keep quoting from the personal opinions of Church leaders commenting outside their capacity as prophets. It just proves again who is really seeking to be sincere. Why don't you write the Church and ask them directly if it is the doctrine of the Church to say God had sex with Mary, and if it is their understanding that the 1972 FHE manual is the definite articulation of that doctrine? That would be too easy. You would get an answer you wouldn't like.

On to Sunday. This will be a blast.
Peace.

Salvation by Justification and Works

Mormons believe that our works play an important role in our salvation. President Spencer W. Kimball wrote:

“... However good a person's works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else's sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel.”—Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 206-208.

I love the foregoing quote by President Kimball as it clearly illustrates the dual roles of man and God in working out our salvation. I have written a brochure, which I will paste here, which addresses most of the TULIP vs. LDS issues. I present it with just a few modifications.

Mormonism is Far More Biblical:

Reformed Evangelism’s Fatal Errors Compared to LDS Doctrine

By RBV

Is it really just a Divine crapshoot to be saved? Reformed Christians, also commonly called Calvinists, adhere to a belief that there are 5 basic tenants of their faith, represented by the acrostic (fancy word for a beefy acronym) TULIP. The most fatal error is that it is unscriptural. We will see that in a moment. It is also based on the false Trinitarian concept of God.

Before we address TULIP and its stark contrast to Mormonism, here is what the parts stand for and some related scriptures:

T is for the total depravity of mankind. No way for man to find his way out of the sinful nature he has. Romans 7:18; Romans 3:9-10, 18; Romans 8:7-8; Eph 2:3,

U is for Unconditional Election. God chose whom he will save, and absolutely nothing we do can change that determination. Because of total depravity, you can do no good worthy of salvation. John 6:37,39, 44, 63-65; John 3:3,6; Romans 8:28-32; Eph 1:4-6, 11; Eph 2:1, 5, 8; Romans 9:11-26; 1 Cor 4:7.

L is for Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption. Christ only died for those he will save, not all mankind. Mt 25:33; Mt 7:22-23; Luke 10:20; Col 3:1-6; Acts 20:28; John 17:9; Eph 5:25.

I is for Irresistible Grace. Even if you don’t want to be saved, and when you are depraved you really don’t, God will drag you into salvation and you will respond when you hear the message of salvation. 1 Cor 4:6; Daniel 4:35; Ps 115:3; Romans 9:14-20; Jn 6:44, 64-65; 2 Cor 4:4-6; Acts 16:14.

P is for the Perseverance of the Saints. Once you are saved, there is no way to lose your salvation. Romans 8:30-39; Philippians 1:1-6; Hebrews 9:11-15; John 6:35-40; John 10: 22-30.

There is no Free Will or Choice in Calvinism!

The first problem, which is totally fatal to Calvinism, is the lack of Free Will or Choice. They have argued this since Calvin cooked up this idea, and it was affirmed at the Synod of Dordt. But mankind is free. It is a scriptural position: 1 Pet 2:16;

Matt. 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Mark 8:34 ¶ And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Galatians 5:1 ¶ STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Paul is talking about our freedom to chose to be righteous or sinful. Even if he is talking about “saved” people, it would mean men could choose to sin and fall away.

Luke 10: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

The Spirit had not come yet (John 15:26; 16:13). So how did Mary choose the good part, if corrupt mankind is incapable of choosing good?

This is too silly in some ways to even argue. Calvinists don’t really believe people are totally depraved and incapable of doing good, or they would not be able to actually participate in legal processes, elections or believe in disciplining their children.

God is Sovereign

Evangelicals believe God is so powerful, he will overwhelm mankind’s freewill to complete his ends. Thus, he always gets what he wants. The problem is the tie-in to Free Will: God wants everyone to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:4 [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Not All Men Are Saved

Calvinists admit that all men are obviously not saved. They are unable to explain Paul’s statement in 1 Tim 2:4, but assert the rest of scripture supports their position, so it must just be accepted on faith that we are incapable of fully understanding.

Here is an illustrative quote: “We should never give the unsaved the idea that God loves them savingly or redemptively—for that would imply that He gave Christ to die in vain for the sins of the non-elect, or that He is powerless to save those He wishes to save.” (by Mitch Cervinka, a Calvinist explaining 1 Tim 2:4) http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Articles/1Timothy2_4.htm Mr. Cervinka tries to force an interpretation to the Greek words which effectively means the phrase “all men” really means some men. Oy. He never deals with Romans 5:18 or 1 Cor 15:21-22, where "all" must mean "all", or we are reduced to a theology as the key for scriptural interpretation, and actually reading the words of scripture has no value.

More devastating to this non-Christian approach is the fact there is so very much scriptural support of God’s desire to save all people. Aside from 1 Tim 2:4, there are similar passages in almost every book of the New Testament:

2 Peter 2: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Titus 2:11¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Also Rev. 22:17 and Deut. 30:19

Faith is Offered to All Men Through Preaching the Gospel

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For Paul, belief meant obedience.

Romans 10: 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Election is Because God Knows Who will respond, Not because he does not want everyone saved:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

As I have described in a previous blog post, the Potter's clay is in fact the vehicle of salvation. God has chosen that. The analogy of the Potter's clay and God choosing Israel as the vehicle for those blessings to be funneled is the clear, historical meaning of the teaching in Romans. Every Jew was conversant with the teachings in Isaiah and Jeremiah 18:6, and so Paul aims his comments in Romans 9 to the Jews among the Christians of Rome. He says so in the text. To fail to understand the audience to whom Paul was writing is one of the main reasons Calvinists have twisted the argument of God foreknowing and selecting the vehicle of salvation into God pre-destining only some of His children into salvation, despite His express wishes for all of His children to be saved.

Did Christ Only Die For a Few People?

The idea that men are free to choose, but they will always choose evil because of their natures is the same as not having a choice. The Bible actually taught about this condition at some length. It is the argument of MANSLAUGHTER.

In the Pentateuch, Moses taught that if a man accidentally killed another man, he could run to a designated safe city called a city of refuge. There he could wait until the death of the High Priest, and emerge without penalty. If he were to leave before the death of the high priest, and he were caught outside by the family of the dead person, the family had the right to kill him. (Numbers 35).

It is clear from the passage that motives matter. If there is no ability to sin (or in TULIP’s case, not sin), then there can be no punishment. This is why Mormons hold that little children are saved (Moroni 8:22). If you cannot comprehend the act you perform, you cannot be held accountable. Jehova says in Num 35:29 that these are “statute[s] of judgment” for all generations. Did God’s Judgment change?

Mormons hold that Christ died for all mankind.

First, he died to provide the resurrection for all men (1 Cor 15:21-22). This act on Christ’s part justified all mankind into God’s presence. Let’s examine three critical passages:

Romans 3:22-25

22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Notice that because all have sinned, all have Christ’s sacrifice extended to them. It is unto all AND all that believe. Two classes are clearly taught here.

Paul follows this up by explicitly stating who is JUSTIFIED by the atonement of Christ:

Romans 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

To show this is not just a twisting or contorting of just a few passages from Paul by the Mormons, here is what John says on the subject as well:

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2, NIV translation)

Are Mormons Universalists?

No. But this is where the false constructs of the Sovereignty of God and Pre-destination just conceptually collapse. God absolutely wants all men to be saved. But he honors mankind’s agency. This goes back to the purpose of the Fall:

Genesis 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…

Calvinists would have you believe that the ability to choose was lost after God said it was what made us like Him. Of course God knows who will be saved. But knowledge of the future is not forcing it upon us. Mankind must be free to choose, and able to be saved, or God is a partial God, and a respecter of persons.

So Who Were Those Given to Christ?

Calvinists often quote John 6:44 which reads:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The problem is they fail to note that this passage is very limited in scope, and is fulfilled. Let us read a little further on in John:

John 17: 11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Christ leaves no doubt here. He was with those God gave him. He asks God to keep them. And he acknowledges he saved all of them, except Judas. His comments in John 6:44 are about his Earthly ministry. He considered everyone his sheep (Matt 9:36), and yet also realized that they would someday be separated, like sheep and goats (Matt 25:32-33). His teachings in Luke 15:1-7 on finding the lost sheep, and especially on sinners repenting cannot be construed as salvation to a certain prescribed class. All have sinned. A sinner repents, and the angels and God rejoice. It is an open call. In one of the most moving and prophetic passages in all scripture about Christ, Isaiah 53 describes all of us as sheep who have gone astray, and Christ suffered for us who esteemed him as nothing.

We Can Lose Our Salvation

Because of mankind’s free will, men can lose their salvation. This is taught all throughout scripture. (Ezek. 18:25-28; Matt 5:13; Luke 8:13; 1 Cor 10:12-13; Gal. 5:4; 1 Tim 4:10; Heb 6:4-6;10:26; James 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:10; 3:17; Rev. 2:5)

Calvin was a control freak. Thus we see him advocating a Control Freak God. Calvin found justification in the control freak mentality of God, as he saw him, for committing mass murders and torturing and hurting untotaled numbers of people. So of course God takes vengeance against the wicked. They were unsaved, and not really people anyway. He never really loved them or wanted to save them. But just in case, even if Calvin did a bad thing, his eternal security was assured, in his mind, so he could in fact murder, but it was OK. Paul teaches that all have fallen short. We are saved from our sins, as we apply our will with the will of God. President Spencer W. Kimball made this awesome observation:

“... However good a person's works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else's sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel.”—Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 206-208.

The Mormons get it right with three verses of scripture:

2 Nephi 25: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Alma 24: 11 … it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts…

Moroni 10:33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (This verse also explains perfection in vs. 32).

Hopefully this is enough information to illustrate the clear LDS vs. Calvinistic position. I truly believe one of the main driving aspects of Calvin's doctrinal formulation was his candid realization of the horrific crimes he continued to commit after his supposed "saving" moment. The thought of losing his own personal salvation led him to a doctrine which essentially ignores what men do and delivers man into a kind of Divine lottery. The logical and practical inconsistencies this doctrine creates for interacting with daily life makes it worthy of the not-so-becoming title of "cheap grace". It also forces a person to ignore the very plain teaching by every prophet that sin is to know good, and do it not. (James 4:17)

The logical consequence of total depravity is that no person can know Good or Evil, and therefore cannot be convicted of transgressing the Law. Christ's atonement would therefore cover 100% of mankind. Otherwise a Calvinist must assert that even the unsaved among mankind can know good and evil, and have the ability to choose which to follow. But then logically God would have to accept them on their own merits and desires, thus providing the need for both absolute grace to absolve men of their sins, and a converted heart to desire to be obedient to the commandments of God. This is why Hebrews 5:8-9 states of Christ:

8. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered ⁹and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Christ is our Saviour, our example and the only name whereby we must be saved. Calvinism destroys that by forcing the willful sinner in with those pursuing obedience, and making false all of the statements of scripture requiring our obedience for salvation.

Salvation is a free gift, but it is gift given only to those who answer the Kings call to enter the Wedding Feast (Matt 22:1-14). He requires us to wear His robes, which means not only responding to the call, but obeying His commandments. The story makes it clear that people choose to respond, of their own will, since the will of the King was for all to enter. That all do not enter means somehow mankind is able to assert their individual will's over that of God.

Come my friends, choose to enter the Feast.
Peace