Tuesday, September 16, 2008

Shawn McCraney: Still Ducking

Check out video reviews on youtube under the answeringantimormons heading.

I called in early to Shawn McCraney's show, Heart of the Matter, because a call screener several weeks ago said I should because I would not make it on due to the time constraints. So I called in at 8:17pm, identified myself, and was told I would be on hold until the other callers got through who were first time callers. At 8:40 pm Shawn noted the lines were full, but no caller information was present, and he had taken about 6 calls so far. Since they only have 4 phone lines, that means he went past me twice, and now was stuck. A minute or two later the call screener, Jeannie, came on and said Shawn would not be taking my call because I was, in so many words, too knowledgeable to let get on the air with Shawn. They said if I was an LDS official, they would let me on the air, but because I was just a knowledgeable Mormon without the "official" title, they did not want to have me on air. Jeannie said lots of Mormons call in to correct Shawn, and she said Shawn was not correct claiming that no Mormons challenged his facts. He just does not let them on the air.

I find it remarkable that the support crew and groupies of Shawn don't understand that someone who claims the Mormons are a Prideful Church of deceivers, don't connect the dots that Shawn is dishonest about his claims about the callers into the show, and they know it first hand, and he does it to avoid engaging knowledgeable Mormons who could correct him. That involves both pride and honesty, and they have first hand knowledge. Go figure. Classic Koolaid drinkers, too committed to act with integrity, I believe. Isn't that what Shawn says faithful Mormons are like? Hmmmm.

Here is the email I sent to Shawn tonight:

Once again I am dazzled by the man who proudly beats his chest and claims time and again that he never gets his facts wrong about the LDS Church, and that no Mormons ever call in to say he has it wrong, standing firmly in the petticoats of his call screeners to make sure knowledgeable Mormons don't accidentally get on the air.

Shawn, it is a lie that Mormons don't attempt to correct your facts. And it speaks volumes that you consider such lies OK because you keep those Mormons off of your show.

Shawn, the more you claim to want to starkly portray the differences between Mormons and non-Mormons, the more absurd your reasoning reveals itself that you don't want to discuss Mormonism with practicing Mormons. If you were not actually afraid of talking to Mormons who know LDS doctrine, why do you limit yourself to the disaffected, uneducated and sometimes genuinely confused? Because your pride won't risk getting bested on your own show. I suspect you may argue with this email, but that too is safe, since it cannot respond.
Have fun, I will put this on my blog at wwwdotpromormon dot blogspot dotcom .
Bob
I don't know anyone who can really defend their hero Shawn, but why not send me your thoughts, or maybe tell about your attempts to get on his show. Or attempt to defend him. That would be rich.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

Bob, I appreciate your diligence in defending the truth. It is a shame that some feel they must destroy, rather than lift up. What is Shawn so afraid of...truth? Or lacking the courage to follow the TRUTH-Jesus Christ.

Anti-Anti-Anti-Mormon said...

I wouldn't answer your call either. Time and time again your info has been shown to be extremely biased and full of logical fallacies. You’ve constantly misused sources and/or the reasoning applied to said sources is faulty.

Your presentation of information can sound and look well researched, but more often than not, it’s just a lot of hot air.

Besides, if any of your other calls on HOTM are any indication to what you were planning on saying, it would be a waste of time to let you on the show and to answer/argue all your red herrings with such a limited time available. It’s just not productive because it is irrelevant. Irrelevant on so many levels I won’t even attempt to get into it…

I’m sorry for what must appear as simple generalizations, but my past experiences with Bob warrant the conclusions. Unfortunately, I just don’t have the time to go into anything point by point like in the past. Especially on a site that I’m assuming doesn’t have a high quantity of traffic.

Anonymous said...

Bob,
It’s been a long time since I’ve watched Shawn’s tv show. I too have had an experience much like yours the difference is mine took place through email.

A little over a year ago I took issue with comments Shawn made about the translation of the gold plates. He seems to be a master at using third party accounts of church history. I emailed him Oliver Cowdery's own account of how the plates were translated and asked him to include the corrected information on his next show.

No surprise to me, the information was left out of his next weeks monolog. I emailed him again to find out what happened and his response to me was that I was a fool and that I was wasting his time.

Shawn’s a jerk. My exchange with him quickly brought to pass the expiration date on my interest in his tv show. Life is too short to have to deal with people like him.

Also, as of late I’ve noticed the tide changing on the internet as far as LDS church bashers vs LDS defenders. It’s nice to see the good guy’s (the LDS defenders) winning for a change.

Thanks
Maddog

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

Maddog,
Nice to hear from you again. I don't know that I would call Shawn a jerk, but I do think ever since his experience with Van Hale he literally is scared to death to engage LDS Apologists for fear of coming off on camera as badly as he did on the radio. Shawn caters to rumor mongering (for example comments from two weeks ago that you have to have the right last name or agreeing with a caller that General Authorities such as President Monson's grandchildren get "better" mission calls.), promoting unofficial LDS doctrines as if they were official, is selective in his use of sources so as not to provide factual accounts of historical events, and sometimes flat gets the facts wrong and doesn't seem to care. His response to me which I published last year where he said he doesn't care really says it all. I am going to re-post his statement likening me to a child molester.
Anyway, thanks for the note.
Bob

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

Well Anti-cubed,
Your comments are pretty typical. No specifics, just another slur of my work, which though not perfect, is certainly at best RARELY shown to be in error. The difference between me and guys like Shawn is I will actually acknowledge when I make an error and correct it. Your comments are the typical stuff of one who doesn't want to exert the effort to prove something true or false. You are pre-disposed to following those you trust without apparently testing the veracity of their claims. If you want a very simple example, just read Hebrews 5:8-9. It devastates the "faith only" teaches, as does Romans 5:18. And yet, still, the only response I get from folks like you is "you have to read the entirety of the body of evidence." Translation, don't bring up contradictions, I am too busy ignoring the verses I don't like.

But thanks for the comment. It too helps illustrate the intellectual point of view from which Shawn's koolaid drinkers are approaching the believing Mormon community.
Bob

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

Just an FYI, but Anti-cubed is so courageous that he doesn't actually have a trackable identity. I guess I am pretty scary.

I am pretty sure I know who this person is. Someone who has had several conversations with me, and runs to hide when it becomes a real, equal conversation.

Thought everyone might want to know.
Bob

Ammon said...

I really like what you have to say! I'm interested in finding that McCraney vs Van Hale, do you know if find a recording and something on it? (sorry I'm very computer illiterate). I actually have talked to McCraney online, asked him what he believes in. He says there is more than one way to be saved. If he says this, then what's the point of his show. According to him anyone can be saved!

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

You can find the McCraney vs Van Hale exchange here: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/2007/04/17/anti-mormon-vs-mormon/

I would be surprised if Shawn said there was more than one way to be saved. My experience with him is he will present a very confused mix of Calvinism mixed with Free Will. His comments, which I have on disk somewhere, at one point said he was a Calvinist, but then he has made statements about how predestination does not actually mean EVERYONE is pre-chosen to be saved or not, which puts him at odds with Calvinism.

Shawn would be the first to say he is not a theologian. Then he will tell you why LDS theology doesn't work. He is, in my opinion, just simply a confused theological mess, who takes the course he has because he has taken positions where he supposedly provides insights into the LDS faith, and has parlayed that into a life style. People don't always do things for money. I have never found any anti-Mormon, however, which does what they do out of "love". At least after the manner taught in the Bible.

Anonymous said...

Not all Evangelical believers endorse McCraney and his bizarre views. The above poster stated, "...He is, in my opinion, just simply a confused theological mess..."
Wow... excellent !

I couldn’t have said it better. I agree with this observation 100%

McCraney obviously is not in agreement with LDS theology...he is making a career of attacking it...

But neither does he embrace, or even understand, Evangelical Theology.

"...a confused theological mess..."

VERY WELL PUT !

posted by "Utah Man", Pastor of an evangelical congregation in SLC.


.

bic22 said...

Wow i thought i was alone on this guy! He has made my life a liveing hell the past 5 months. I left the Lds church when i was 14 becuse i was young and very out of control and didnt want to learn and had friends that brain washed ect. Now im older and have found out who i am. my best friend is a born agin and loves this guy and thinks everything he says is true and is useing him to try to mess me up! Im trying to get back into the church and become stronger with my testimony but i have so much hate in me right now for Shawn McCraney he has killed a 16 year friendship and has turned my heart to stone for the last time! Im so glad i found this blog. was he even Lds? I think he is lieing. Anyways i feel better thank you(:

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

Bic 22,
Thanks for the comments. I can tell you that Shawn McCraney was at one time a member of the LDS Church, though he states he never believed it, or, in my opinion, understood it. I make this offer generally to everyone, but if you happen to live in Utah and would ever like to have me meet with you and your best friend, I think I can provide him with some perspective on tolerance, even if he doesn't believe the LDS faith is correct. It is correct, btw, but if someone is listening to Shawn, then you can bet they don't actually understand the Bible.

Good luck.

Anonymous said...

I have tried to email him many times, but he is very rude and won't even acknowledge my corrections. I would like to get his show and the TV station off the air. If you want copies of his emails to me, just let me know.

Anonymous said...

And I'm sure you LDS smarty pants (while willling to sit and banter back and forth about the meaning of this scripture or that, or the context of this statement or that to show how educated you think you are) are completely comfortable with ignoring Joseph Smith's marriage to teenage girls, those girls' journals about JS and BY's coersion tactics to fource illegal marriage on them, JS marriage to women that were already married to LIVING men who JS has sent off on missions, JS hoards of BS prophecies that never came true, JS's blatant disrespect and disobedicence to his own laws and morals he taught the LDS people, the obsolute theft and plagerism of material to make the BOM, the many different version of the first vision, the 3000+ changes to the "most perfect book on earth", that testimonies and journals of Emma, JS himself, and Cowdery, JS family, etc that JS never had plates anywhere near him while translating, the Kinderhook plates, the Book of Abraham fraud, the anacroysms in the BoM, the fact there is not a SINGLE VERIFIABLE archeological piece of evidence in existance that proves anything about the BoM, Jaredites, Lamanites, etc. (as admitted by FARMS, etc), DNA evidence, sickening temple rituals that were stolen from Masons directly and added upon with other sicknesses...and then changed over and over again by "prophets", the fact that virtually nothing that is done in the temples today was ever done in ancient temples, .....etc, etc, etc, etc.
Just ignore that all and continue to banter on and on about this misquote, or that scriptural context.
Ignore the 5000 lb gorilla in the room. Ignorance is bliss. And by playing the fool, you get to actively continue to keep the walls of your virtual fraudulent kingdom around you.
Blindness never was happiness. But if you can't see real happiness...I guess it will just have to suffice.

Anonymous said...

Good news! Born Again Mormon is almost out of money.
I watched Shawn last Tuesday and saw a segment where he was asking his follower for money to keep the show on the air. In a few months BAG will fade into the past because when it comes right down to it Anti-Mormons aren’t willing to put their money where their mouths are. It’s going to be a great day!

Anonymous said...

I find it interesting that, I believe, Shawn used to say he would never ask for money. Now here he is doing just that.

Regarding his emails, you should see the nasty, rude ones he has sent me over the years.

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

I want to respond to the anonymous comment from back on May 16, 2009. This person is also what I describe as a koolaid drinker.

I say this because it is pretty obvious they have done no personal research on the subject, but I have document created by one of the anti-Mormon ministries. I say that because the punch-list of items is typical. Let me point people with specific questions to www.fairwiki.org where there is a searchable online encyclopedia of all of these types of accusations and point by point responses with references to source material. For example, the idea of Joseph Smith having plural wives who were teenage girls, and his "coercion". Notice no citation. Because it gets messy to see where anyone is forced, since they are 1. Following a belief the practice is important, 2. Their parents were aware and typically there, 3. in the case of Joseph, they probably NEVER consummated the "marriages" sexually, not that it matters if you believe it was sanctioned by God. Moreover, they completely ignore the Biblical precedent for God authorizing plural marriage. David is given the wives of his predecessor (2 Sam 12:8); God directly commands Hosea to take two wives (Hosea chapters 1 & 3); Hagar is commanded by God to go back into polygamy when she seeks to leave Abraham and Sarah (Gen 16:7-16); The Lord tells Moses to include instructions on polygamy in the Law; And so it goes.

How about failed prophecies? None. Why don't they list any? Because if they do, then we can compare them to the Biblical ones, such as Jonah, Jesus (this Generation!), and other prophetic statements.

DNA-More than handled, actually have the guy who raised the argument admitting it is actually based on how Mormons interpret the Book of Mormon, and not genetic evidence itself, which he acknowledges would be virtually if not totally undetectable;
Changes to the BoM: Please, don't get me started on first of all how they came about, their impact, but most telling, PLEASE don't start throwing rocks about the BofM when the Bible's 5,000+ manuscripts don't contain ANY TWO which are identical! We are talking a minimum of 250,000-400,000 variations, and some are significant. Literally, they cannot agree on what the "Bible" should exclusively contain, or in other words, which is the original Bible, and which are errors and changes which have crept in.

The ignorance displayed on the process of translation is truly breath taking, so I would encourage a little study there (OK, ALOT of study). Kinderhook plates were a fraud Joseph did not fall for. Great Youtube video on the subject, but the Church has also published extensively on it.

Or you can keep choosing to be spoon fed the stuff of anti-Mormons who are only interested in denigrating the LDS Church, and don't care about facts.

Nice long response, and if you want me to turn this into a full length response, I will be happy to embarrass you with a thorough citation of sources and facts. But my guess is that facts are things you don't trouble yourself a great deal with, as in "fact checking".
Sorry for the slam, but again, a good illustration of what the typical true believer is swallowing in place of research.

Anonymous said...

The truth will prevail. God is God and man isn't.
Who is rally the ANTI?

Anonymous said...

Bob, if you are the one who has to approve comments this site will be
very one sided just like the state

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

To the immediately preceding Anonymous comment:
I am the one who approves the comments. In the past 6 years I have never rejected a comment. EVER.

In the event someone were to use vile language or be patently offensive to the sacred held beliefs of individuals, then I would stop a comment. Fortunately I have not seen such a post yet. So make your points, I will post them. I can't promise that you won't be excoriated by myself or others if you opt to make stupid comments. But stupid is OK.

Peace

Rob Floyd said...

I've watched a few of Shawn's shows and he seems to be consistently saying that his intended audience is not people who are content in the LDS church, like you are. He is reaching out to current or former LDS people who are realizing that they need a relationship with Jesus Christ and not a religion that just promotes good behavior. If they are current or former LDS members then they've certainly heard all the good arguments that the LDS church makes so why not give them an opportunity to hear another side of the story? Shawn says that if you are happy in the LDS religion and beleieve that your good works will make you worthy to live with God again in Heaven then go ahead and the rest of us will put our trust in Jesus Christ alone.

Bob the Anti-Anti said...

Thanks for the comment Rob, but it is just not the case. Who does he invite to call in? First time Mormon callers, as long as they are not "apologists", i.e., people educated enough to respond in real time on air.

But As I keep telling people, read his web site. His published goals are to change the physical LDS Church. And you do that by NOT engaging active LDS how?

It is pure garbage, IMHO, to pretend that a "relationship with Christ" is different than a religion. You and Shawn are kidding yourselves. You have the same constructs as the Mormons. You have excommunicated and condemned as going to hell those who don't believe as you (true Church anyone?); you have established norms for sacral behavior, such as anything goes prayers and accepting anyone who claims to be saved, as long as they believe in the trinity; specific terms of religiousity (Body of Christ; his word; salvation by grace alone through faith alone) which you can only interpret using extra-Biblical standards; and you even have a priesthood which you honor with terms like "pastor", "reverend", etc., which are almost always qualified to such titles by their educational attainment.

Lastly, you don't put your trust in Jesus Christ alone. Unless, of course, you are receiving revelation from him. Are you? Seriously, are you?

If you are, what is he saying? He is not saying you got this trust in Jesus and do no works philosophy from him, since HE teaches that faith and works are required for salvation. In fact, you cannot find a single passage in the New Testament which in context says you don't need to do good works to be saved or stay saved.

Don't believe me? Let's hit the big favorites:

Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart...you will be saved(Romans 10:9).

What you left off: Romans 10:16 "For not all have obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report." Did you notice that in the exact chapter, belief is equated to obedience.

Eph 2:8-9By grace ye are saved through faith...not of works lest any man should boast.

What you left off:
Eph 2:10 we are created unto good works which god has ordained we should walk in.

Titus 3:5 Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.

What you left off: The rest of Titus 3:5
"by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the holy ghost.
And Titus 3:8
that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

And of course, the two most ignored verses in the New Testament by "Faith Only" types:
Heb 5:9 Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of none effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

So...Jesus is the savior of the obedient, and while you believe it is impossible to do anything to obtain salvation, scripture states you can do things to loose it, which means you DO engage in activities to obtain salvation.

Thanks for the comments.

Anonymous said...

I recently had and exchange of E-mails with Mr. Mccraney and he said this to me:

"My freaking gosh, are you so dull and measured in your head that when things conflict with how you see them you have to actually write to the person (over and over again) who refutes you so as to have it all make sense? Does this help you rest a night? I mean, can you see or think outside your little parameters for just a moment and catch a glimpse of the big picture? Mormonism can do whatever the hell they want as far as I'm concerned. But if they claim Christianity, I am going to stand and say, not true. The image I present to you is irrelevant to the dialectic. I could be an atheist and make this assessment by simply comparing the proof texts of each group and be correct. How I appear to you, in my Christianity, is absolutely irrelevant! Yet you seem to think that in order for Webster to define words, he has to embody them to perfection. Good f-ing grief.

Find someone else to bother. You're so boring. Really. You bring NOTHING of weight or value to me. All I hear, like all I usually hear from types like you, is whir of an empty blender. Nothing is getting diced or minced or created or presented - nothing tasty, nothing delicious, nothing of value. Just a three-pronged blade (heart, mouth, and eyes) spinning at 200 revolutions per second - through a giant pillar of air."


This guy is a true charlatan. His Christianity is highly questionable in my opinion.

boyd said...

The real charlatan is Joseph Smith. A false prophet, deceiver and bearer of false doctrine.

Anonymous said...

You miss the whole point of Shawn McCraney's show. It is to direct Mormons and other non-christians to Jesus Christ. He truly cares about your salvation. Religion has nothing to do with salvation.

anonymous

Anonymous said...

Listen Guys Calvary Chapel Is a great church If the Members Had any idea what this Shawn Guy is all about they would pull the plug on him. I know how caring and loving many of them are , there is no way they support this king of persecution , you need to conttack other Calvary pastors and let them know how offensive this guy is!!

Jeff said...

Bob,
I appreciate your intelligent responses to the absurdities of Shawn and his minions. All the fuss over his ridiculous comments just gives him credibility. The fact is, Shawn is a joke. I used to watch and laugh at his stupidity, but it became so tedious that I couldn't justify the time. Any honest, intelligent person just needs to listen to this guy for 5 minutes to recognize that he truly isn't a disciple of Christ. The Savior said that by their fruits ye shall know them. Look at the "fruits" of Shawn McCraney. He promotes hatred and intolerance. He lies on a regular basis. He's taken pride to a level I didn't know existed. One of his minions wrote in and mentioned that we didn't understand the purpose of his show. According to him, Shawn is trying to bring us to Christ. The problem is, in order to bring people to Christ, you actually have to be a disciple yourself. His words, actions, and doctrines have to be consistent with the Savior's and they simply aren't.

The "grace" philosophy is something that he consistently espouses. It is an incredibly convenient philosophy, but not scripturely sound. He bases this teaching on the words of Paul to the Ephesians:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2: 8-9

Paul didn't say that we were saved by grace only, he said were saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. If you were to read the second chapter of James, he makes it very clear that you can't have faith without works. They are synonymous terms. So, the scripture in Ephesians could read,
"For by grace are ye saved through faith or works..."

Then you would say, yes, but in verse 9 Paul says, "not of works, lest any man should boast."
That is clarified in Matthew 7:21-23.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew is very clear in how we are allowed into the kingdom of heaven and that is by doing the will of the Father. He also mentions that there are those that do works that will not be recognized by him because the works they do aren't focused on the will of the Father.

Lastly, Revelations 20:12-13:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS."

It is very obvious that works play a vital role in our salvation.
I would hope that your readers are able to see the difference between a true disciple of Christ and the Shawn McCraney's out there.

Jeff

Abbly said...

I just listened to the Van Hale piece and oddly what I heard was Van refusing to answer Shawn's points.

Anonymous said...

@Jeff, I haven't done much study in this area, but I think what the end of your comment was referring to the Great White Throne Judgement. I never learned about this in Mormonism, but to Christians, it is where all the unsaved are to be judged. They are judged according to their works because they don't have the faith that covers them in the blood of Christ. And since their works are like filthy rags etc. They are going to hell.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
To be clear, I never said I was a mormon. I said I agreed with Bob and his explanation of things. I also said I have watched Shawn and can't imagine anyone that is determined to follow Christ having anything to do with him.

I also got from your comments that you don't believe the Mormon Church is a Christian religion. The name of their Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints dispels that myth.

Finally, I'm scratching my head over your explanation of Rev. 20,
specifically verses 12-13. To me, the verses make clear that all people "great and small", everyone that has died (which pretty much covers everyone since no one that I'm aware of has made it out of this world alive), and "every man" will be judged out of the books ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

You mentioned there was a group of people that were saved because of their faith. I didn't see that anywhere in those verses or that chapter, but if that were the case, how was their faith made manifest? James 2 says, by their works.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

The LDS church spends billions of dollars sending Mormon missionaries door to door - claiming to represent Christianity - which it isn't. Mormonism actually OPPOSES Christianity.

Mormonism teaches that there are many, many Gods in the cosmos. It treaches that a Mormon man can become a God of his own planet - having eternal sex with a bevvy of Mormon God-Babes (who naturally, will almost always be PREGNANT - or IN LABOR! (aren't they lucky, lucky girls?, and Mormons may believe it's true - but it is NOT Christianity.

Often, when Mormons call Shawn's show - they are EVASIVE, even DENYING basic LDS doctrines central to Mormonism.

We are not anti-Mormon. Mormonism is ANTI-CHRISTIAN. THEY attacked Christianity. Christianity has been around since Jesus walked the earth.

In 1830, along comes Joseph Smith, claiming Jesus Christ allowed the Bible and the Christian churches to become corrupted - and only He, JOSEPH SMITH JR. could restore everything.

Jesus Christ called Christians to defend the gospel in season and out of season. Shawn is being used by God to warn people that Mormonism is not Bible-based Christianity - and to lead Mormons to the Jesus of the Bible.

Bob said...

I debated with myself about posting the immediately preceding comment by some anonymous writer because he obviously has neither read the material on my website, or, for that matter, any actual LDS material.

Hard to imagine getting more things wrong. He is some Shawn McCraney mega-fan/droid who has followed the sacred axiom, "When Shawn McCraney speaks, the thinking and research is done."

Gosh, wouldn't it be cool if Shawn McCraney didn't ban folks like myself or Walker or other informed, reasonable and unafraid Mormons from engaging him on air? You heard him say,I am assuming, "that is why you are banned"? I didn't raise my voice or evade any questions. I simply pointed out that he was ascribing the doctrine of infallibility to Mormon leaders, a doctrine the Mormons don't believe. If you want to build your attacks on the mis-statements of any groups leaders, or mock the errors they make out of honest ignorance on a subject, then there is no point trying to speak with anyone. Certainly such an attitude rejects Christian forgiveness and reasonableness.

Anyway, where did the idiotic idea of people becoming gods of their own planets come from? Not from LDS doctrine. I discuss it at length in my review of "A Struggle to Peace" a few reviews later. It is a distortion of the Biblical and LDS doctrine of exaltation. It is exclusively in the writings of the LDS Church's critics. So anonymous, next time sign in with a real name, and sign in having done some research. If you are truly as ignorant of LDS doctrine as your comments betray, ask questions. Making statements with just expose you for what you are: An uninformed zealot of an unscriptural position and ignorant of LDS history and doctrine.

Life's too short to ignorantly hate those things you know nothing about. If you must hate, at least move into the intentionally hateful category. Your current lifestyle no doubt alienates you from many other joys which come from an informed life, like Truth.

Peace,
Bob

Ronald T. Baker said...

Shawn is only nasty and rude when your nasty and rude and attack him. I have talked to Shawn several times and i know he is not wrong in his facts. You Mormons never want to acknowledge the facts. Your church is undoubtedly %100 wrong.

Jeff said...

I'm not quite sure how to respond to Ronald T. Baker's comments. Ron, you've convinced me... All I've needed to do to find out the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is to talk to Shawn McCraney and that will take care of it. That's like asking Mahmoud Ahmadinejad what he's going to do with a nuclear reactor, or asking Hitler what he's going to do with the Jews, or it's like asking Lizzy Borden what she's going to do with the axe. Shawn is the antagonist. His "facts" are obviously slanted toward his bias. He is not the source of truthful information concerning the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Your statement that Shawn only attacks when attacked is unfortunate. Shawn McCraney pays a TV station to appear on his own show to do the very things you claim are a reaction. Without any provocation whatsoever, Shawn attacks and belittles for an hour every week. You claim that church members are hesitant to talk about the "facts" as discussed by Shawn, when in reality they are refusing to "cast their peril before swine". No one would be willing to place before a person like Shawn the precious truths of the Gospel. He isn't equipped with the intellect, knowledge, demeanor, or spirit to discuss them as the Savior would have them discussed.

Last thought, once a month, members of the Church fast for 24 hours and give the money they would have spent for the meals they missed to the Church. One of things that money is used for is to purchase emergency supplies for victims of disasters all over the world. Not just for the members of the Church, but everyone. Anywhere in the world when there is a disaster, the Church is the first or, if not the first, then soon thereafter, administering to the aid of the people. What does Shawn do? He spends his money to get on TV to promote his agenda of hate, arrogance, and pride. Think how many could have benefitted from the money he has wasted on his absurdities. The saviors words were never more clear when he said, "by their fruits ye shall know them". (Referring to his disciples)

Biases are a difficult thing to change. It would be wise to do some study on your own. You will then begin to see Shawn as everyone else does.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

Although I can't argue the facts of your particular story (it's your personal recollection), but I can identify ongoing misrepresentations of the facts. Your blogsite clearly demonstrates extreme cognitive dissonance with respect to overt truth. I'm sure you think this LDS thing works for you, and that is why you live and promote it, but beware that your superficial representations will come back to haunt you. Living a fraud engenders a deep and unrelenting stress. Living in a genuine manner is the only decent way to live...

Bob said...

Anonymous,
Please, COGNITIVE DISSONANCE? Are you serious? You are saying I am actually lying through my teeth to preserve events which I have made up to justify my belief system? Try this instead: It is truth. I don't have time to make up lies.

One sign of being a liar is that there are identifiable factual errors, inconsistent timelines or other demonstrable patterns of lies in a person's life. I don't fit that pattern. You don't know me, and essentially you must call me a liar or hypocrit, intellectually dishonest person.

I have a great life. Great family, low blood pressure, and a group of friends both inside and outside my faith. Even my critics, who actually know me as opposed to the folks who get mad when they get spanked trying to debate with me, will tell you I am "real".

So back at you. Why don't you try to stop denying the supernatural world you are so obviously afraid of investigating. The beauty of the LDS faith, just as Jesus taught, is that truth is confirmed by the Spirit. Granted, the spirit is not subject to the scientific method. But then again, the scientific method doesn't render truth, just results. So please, identify those "ongoing misrepresentations of the facts". Let's interact a little. See if I evade, lie or am incapable of providing a cogent representation of the "facts".

Peace and joy.
Bob

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous - 8/16/2010 9:01 AM

"We are not anti-Mormon. Mormonism is ANTI-CHRISTIAN. THEY attacked Christianity. Christianity has been around since Jesus walked the earth.

In 1830, along comes Joseph Smith, claiming Jesus Christ allowed the Bible and the Christian churches to become corrupted - and only He, JOSEPH SMITH JR. could restore everything."

I was interested in what you had to say, but I was hoping you might clarify a few of your comments.


C.
"Christianity has been around since Jesus walked the earth."

Q.
What form of Christianity are you speaking of?


C.
"In 1830, along comes Joseph Smith, claiming Jesus Christ allowed the Bible and the Christian churches to become corrupted - and only He, JOSEPH SMITH JR. could restore everything."

Q.
Are you suggesting that before Joseph Smith claimed to restore the "Christian" assembly there was no doctrinal or spiritual disaccord among the faithful?

If so, would you please inform me of your faith confession so that I might better understand your conclusions.

Q.
Do you confess Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism?

Or perhaps your views of "Christianity" are derived from the refurbished doctrinal catechisms of Huss, Erasmus, Luther, Zwingli, Bucer, Oecalampadius, Melangathon, Calvin, Knox, Wycliffe, Arminius, Cranmer, or von Carlstadt, etc…?

C.
"Jesus Christ called Christians to defend the gospel…"

Q.
Of the current 38,000 differing denominations professing "Christianity", which of these is called to administer His call and which are not?


C.
"The LDS church spends billions of dollars sending Mormon missionaries door to door…"

Would you please reference this information I'm interested in its source, plus it would give some creditability to your comment.


Thanks,

Richard

Anonymous said...

I just came across this blog. I read where Bob states on 7/22/2009 "God directly commands Hosea to take two wives (Hosea chapters 1 & 3). I read my NKJ Bible and I am not seeing it. I thought maybe it was in the Joseph Smith version of the Bible however I don't read it there either. Is there a specific version of the Bible that the people of the LDS faith read? It seems it is all about one wife, a harlot named Gomer. It seems that God was telling his people (through Hosea) that they have played the harlot in there relationship between them and Him. What am I missing?

Anonymous said...

Im not anti Lds or anti christian tho the one thing i am against is Shawn M trying to start a war or fight between two churches over his little pink thong. He knows nothing about the Bible and if it wasnt for people off camera telling him what to say he would be clueless.I once asked a simple question of how many verses is Genesis and he lol said 10 i couldnt help but laugh.Its roughly 1,22.I had also sent in an email asking about dinasours being a serious question needing some kind of answer.When i saw the latest show he referred to me as an atheist and went on reading his totally re writin email.All he did was take my question and twisted it around to make me look bad and give me a bad name. He is Hitler all over again i swear.I know thats harsh but i would like to see his show taken off t.v No one should use gods name to justify there vendetta.

Anonymous said...

What Shawn is doing is definitely not trying to start a 'war' with anyone. The Mormon church and their members of course are going to be very deffensive about his mission, because, whether you all like it or not, Shawn has aided in many finding the truth and subsequently leaving 'The Church'. I have grown up in Utah and am quite knowledgable about the LDS church myself. (definitely more so than a lot of the so called 'members') I have been raised to put all my trust and love into Jesus Christ, the one and only TRUE savior. I love the mormon people, truly I do. I have many family members who are still, sadly, apart of the LDS religion. My husband was apart of the church for 20 years and was very close to going on a 'mission'. He decided not to around the time he and I started dating and started attending a non-denominational church with myself. He found the REAL Jesus Christ there, was saved, and babtised (because he chose to be, not because it was his 8th birthday) He is finally free. He no longer lives under the bondage of the Church, or its members. I know Shawn and his ministry are not perfect, nobody is, no matter how hard they might try. But I truly believe that his intentions and heart are in the right place. He cares about the salvation of a people lost and decieved. He knows that unless you put your faith in Jesus as your savior and accept that he died on the cross for your sins and it's not by anything you can do that you are saved. If you don't accept the truth there will definitely be a high price to pay.

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9

Jesus saves.
Not Joseph Smith,
his 'church',
or your works.

God bless, and good luck.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 3/17/11, obviously you've never seen Shawn live or met him, if so you would obviously know he doesn't have people telling him what to say. And he is QUITE knowledgable about the bible, he attended bible college for 2 years. Get your facts straight there buddy.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 5/11/2011 8:28 AM. Your comments are quite interesting. You said "I have been raised to put all my trust and love into Jesus Christ, the one and only TRUE savior." Are you suggesting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints professes something contrary to the centrality of Jesus?
If so, could you please provide some objective evidence - (not something the your pastor conjured up in his/her anti-Mormon sermons).
You also mentioned that your husband found the"REAL Jesus Christ". What does this mean? Are there others? If so, who determines what constitutes the "REAL Jesus"?
You also expressed that you belong to a non-demoninational church. Seeing that you fail to provide any formal epithet one can only surmise that it is one of those churches that finds it permissible for its adherents to wander amid the ever-expanding smorgasbord of Christian theologies picking through the differing doctrines and philosophies until they stumble upon ‘truths’ that justify their hypothesis of Christianity and simply discard whatever does not substantiate their conclusions.
While it is evident that you, and many other critics on this blog, have an extreme dislike for those that refuse to bootlick your concept of Christianity, spiritual clarification, or ‘enlightenment’, your kind often indicate a desire to bring the "Mormons" out of darkness and unto Christ, freedom, or illumination. The trouble is you fail to impart any corrective course of action or faith confession that could conceivably liberate these so called hoodwinked souls that wander aimlessly outside your realm of rectitude. Are the "lost and deceived" not worthy of your notion of salvation? Or is it possible that your position on Christianity falls under the ambivalent security of agnosticism?

Anonymous said...

Shawn McCraney talks about the FACTS of the mormon beliefs and where they come from. Keeping your head stuck in the sand is not what Jesus said to do. Hundreds and Hundreds of mormons are finding the BOM to be false. Thanks to the help of Shawn McCraney. If you need info on anything of mormon beliefs go to... www.Utahlighthouseministry.com

Anonymous said...

@anonyomous 6/23/2011 10:56PM

Surely you're not serious? If you really, in all honesty, conclude that McCraney delivers objective evidence then I believe your head to be stuck somewhere other than in the sand.

P.S If you need info on anything Target Co. believes go to…
www.Walmart.com

Anonymous said...

I've heard McCraney talk about "Rapture". From what I can gather, it is an event that will take place at the second coming of the Savior. Would someone please explain the philosophy and site scripture references that support the notion.

Thanks

Lee said...

So what are we supposed to just believe what you said about his screeners saying, "You are too knowledable to debate with Shawn."?

Seems to me that someone has a big ego.

Unfortunately, that ego makes it hard to believe your story.

Lee said...

hahaha The guy talks about how much he is censored from Shawn's show, yet has comment approval on his blog.

No doubt this comment will be approved or my comment before.

Talk about hypocricy.

Anonymous said...

Attending a "Bible College" for 2 years automatically makes you a Biblical Scholar? Wow... I'd have to disagree!

When I first watched HOTM I was really hopeful for what the show might do. Unfortunately it has not turned out the way that I had hoped. Shawn's "loving methods" do not always turn out so loving. Where is the grace and love seasoned through the conversation? Shawn is constantly yelling, being manipulative, and even rude at the expense of people on the other end of the line. Come on Shawn, start treating people with some love! Maybe then LDS people would actually listen to what you might have to say to them.

Blessings-

SC

Mel C. Thompson said...

The LDS v. McCraney battle is one I've been watching for months, now as an outsider, not being Mormon or Born-Again Christian. Although I don't believe in either faith, I think, in the long run, the LDS church has a number of advantages I list. In the process, I also praise Shawn for being a great performer and master logician, which, I go on to note, will not help him prevail in the end.

file:///Users/melthompson/Dropbox/Public/ldsvevangelicals.html

Anonymous said...

Hello. I am a BAC, and I am not "anti-Mormon." I do not believe nor do I follow the teachings of Mormonism, I do believe that Joseph Smith was wrong, and I do not believe that the Bible is wrong/erred and that the Book of Mormon is Equal to if not Greater Than the Bible. I ALSO do not believe in "bullying" Latter Day Saints for their beliefs. That is wrong.

I also do not believe that the US Government has the right to interfere with the beliefs of LDS members in regards to Article 132 (or whatever it is) as it pertains to polygamous/plural marriage. In fact, I applaud those who have responsibly and appropriately (and civilly) disregarded the attempts at interfering with plural marriage.

I know my feelings on this matter not only go against the (revised) teachings of the LDS church - and that it is an ex-communicable offense to them - and also the laws of the US Government, but as long as these plural families are self-sustaining and not being unreasonable "drains on the economy/system" and they're not engaged in immoral and outright illegal practices (see Jeff Warren) then what right is there for government interference anyway? And if not for government interference, what would the LDS church do officially?

I am just wondering about this issue - does it not say somewhere, or has it not been given in a prophetic word, that polygamy will again be brought to mainstream Mormonism and be able to be practiced openly and without fear of retaliation or persecution?

I am able to be reached at "pizzaguy4hire@yahoo.com" for discussion of this.

Thanks,

Zach

Anonymous said...

Mornon are a fake religion There is not a shread of proof in anything the book of mormon says - it is a money maker only for the leaders.Isn't it strange that only rich people are the leaders of the church? I back Shawn 100% - get out of Utah and see what the rest of the country thinks about mormons. they are a CULT - nothing more. I feel sorry for the foolish that give their money to provide for the church leaders. Give your money to the poor ... oh I forgot that it does not count as tithing unless the church gets it diretly. You know the mormon church give less than 5% to people that are in need? They take in over a BILLION dollars a year. Where is this money going???IF YOU really BELIEVED IN GOD YOU WOULD NOT BE A MEMBER OF THE MORMONS you would be helping those that need it.

Anonymous said...

That last one was hilarious. Really, Bob, you should make it a requirement that a person posting a comment must have an IQ over 80.

Anonymous said...

Instead of sitting on your couches all day, why don't you "faithful" Mormons say everything you say here on Shawn's show? If you want to go defend your faith, then go ahead. Don't hide it all in a little blog.

Steve Jones said...

I really like Shawn's show because he represents Mormonism very accurately and shares what the Bible says very clearly. He also shows how Mormonism is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY different then the good news of Jesus Christ found in the Bible. I pray to God that at least one Mormon reading this will start to read a Bible without Mormon footnotes and start to think for themselves. If you didn't get into Shawn's show with your super-knowledgable prideful comment I am so sorry. Maybe it is because Shawn saw you as too entrenched in the lie and he would rather reach people with an open mind who aren't completely sucked into the organization already. Your call probably would add anything to his show and I see no problem with that. It is HIS show and not yours.

Anonymous said...

To ALL those who try to practice Old Testament laws or use the Old Testament to excuse polygamy, blood sacrifice, priesthood authority, sabbath day observance, tithing, etc: THE BIBLE IS TO BE READ CONTEXTUALLY - read the WHOLE thing as a complete story. Those laws and dealings with God in the Old Testament were between God and his covenant people, the Israelites. They had nothing to do with the Gentiles (us). Then God came down as Jesus Christ to fulfill the law and point everyone (including his chosen people - the Israelites) in the direction he set through his physical example here on earth. The God we know through Jesus Christ is what He has commanded us to follow now. You don't like that? Niether did the Pharisees. So much so, that they sought to take his life on many occasions and finally succeeded.

Here's an analogy of the Bible. Imagine baking a pie. The pie tin (Old Testament laws and ordinances) is necessary to bring forth the finished product (pie/Jesus), but we don't take the pie out of the oven, dump it in the trash and focus on the pie tin. No! We partake of the pie and acknowledge the equal importance of the pie tin to simply bring forth the completed work. The Old Testament points to the finished work of God through Jesus Christ.

Stop focusing on the "Pie Tin" and remember that those laws and ordinances weren't even ours to keep! They were between God and His chosen people, the Israelites. If you want to keep the law then go ahead, but do it right. The sabbath day is actually on Saturday and if you break it you are to be stoned to death. Look closely at the laws God put forth for the Isrealites and notice that they are not only convenants that exclude YOU, but that the way they were to be kept in Old Testament times are not how they are being kept today by certain religions.

Let's focus on the finished work of God through Jesus Christ. That's what He asked us to do, right? The gospel of Jesus Christ is beautiful and simple. As Paul said: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I love Jesus Christ and thank Him for his sacrifice to bring to pass His beautiful gospel of grace.

Praise God!!

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous 5/18/2011 12:01 PM : Do LDS believe something contrary to the centrality of Jesus?
"No I don't [believe in the traditional Christ]. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the fullness of times (President Gordon B. Hinckley). "Christianity" is a belief system. Christians believe that they are saved (will live with God again) by grace through Jesus Christ's shed blood and not of works. Mormons believe they are saved by grace too and not of works, but first they must have their temple work done. To do that, they must pay tithing along with a big list of "to do's" to be found "worthy" to enter into the temple where their temple work is performed. Then, they can live with God again. Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers. Christians don’t. Mormons believe God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. Christians don’t. Mormons believe those who return to live with God again, will be made into gods and procreate, creating worlds for eternity with their wife or wives. Christians don’t. Mormons believe Jesus is one of many Gods. Christians don’t. Mormons believe Jesus Christ is their elder brother. Christians don’t. Christians worship Jesus Christ. Bruce R. McConkie said: "We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost" (BYU Devotional Speech, March 2, 1982). Christians don’t believe you have to be married to live with God again. Mormons believe the opposite. Mormons believe polygamy will be in heaven for those who "accept it". Christians don’t’ believe polygamy will be in heaven whether accepted or not. Mormons believe in a heavenly mother. Christians don’t. Christians believe the gates of Hell will not prevail against Jesus’ church. Mormons believe in an apostasy which required a restoration. Christians believe Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets and that HE is the only mediator between God and man. Mormons have a living prophet that gives new revelation from God beyond what the “Traditional Christ” fulfilled. Christians believe heaven and earth shall pass away, but God’s word (the bible) will never pass away. Mormons believe "plain and precious truths" were taken from the Bible. Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God. Mormons believe the Bible is the Word of God "as long as it’s translated correctly." Christians believe the Aaronic priesthood was set in place solely for the purpose of pointing to the finished work of Jesus Christ and that it is ONLY Jesus Christ who is now the high priest forever after the order of Melchisedeck. Mormons believe their men hold the Aaronic and Melchisedeck priesthood along with Jesus. Mormons fighting tooth and nail to be viewed as "Christian" is baffling. It's like someone fighting to be called a Mormon even though they openly profess not to believe in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, temple rites, priesthood ordination and celestial marriage. Mormons, be proud of what you believe and own it. Say you are a MORMON. If you believe you have the full truth and the rest of the Christian world is off the mark - you ought to be joyfully and openly professing that you do not believe in the traditional Christ as viewed by the rest of the Christian world...cause quite frankly - you don't. You are not Christian, you’re Mormon/ LDS. Own it.

Anonymous said...

The differences between Christianity and Mormonism not to mention the quote by their own apostle - Mcconkie saying Mormons do not worship the Son of God prove that Jesus is NOT central to their religion and that they definitely do not believe in the same Jesus of the Bible. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:24).

Anonymous said...

Christians believe the bible when it says God no longer dwells in temples made by hands. Mormons believe God still dwells in temples made by hands so they continue to build multimillion-dollar temples all over the world. Another big step away from Christianity!

Anonymous said...

Bob,

You said: "Anyway, where did the idiotic idea of people becoming gods of their own planets come from? Not from LDS doctrine."

I have been a strong, faithful Mormon for over 30 years. My entire family on both sides have been members of the church all the way back to the 1830's when it first began. I read your comment as referred to above and came to the conclusion that you can't possibly be a true LDS member that actually knows the doctrine and deny the fact that the LDS believe they will one day be gods of their own planets and procreate for eternity with their wife/wives if they remain faithful to the end and make it to the top level of the celestial kingdom. If you are denying that, it's either because you are flat out LYING or because YOU don't have a clue about the LDS faith. You're an embarrassment to the LDS faith. And just as YOU said (errors included): "Making statements with just expose you for what you are: An uninformed zealot of an unscriptural position and ignorant of LDS history and doctrine." Right back at ya Bob.

Bob's aim is at helping the LDS members remain in a state of confusion and darkness and he KNOWS it. Unfortunately, it'll work with a lot of people. It's a flat out tragedy.

Let's see you post this Bob and my other comment about how LDS aren't Christian. You know it speaks the truth and you don't know how to respond without looking like an idiot. Stop lying - tell the truth about your religion and if Anti-Mormons or even pro-Mormons don't like it and use it against you, so be it. It's time the LDS Church stands by what their own apostles and prophets have set forth as doctrine throughout the years. They love to say the prophet WON'T lead you astray, but ironically they abandon doctrine that has been established all along the way - even saying it was errant. It's all done in an effort to be politically correct and win more converts.
But people with their eyes open see you and the LDS church for what you are and don't get sucked into the lie. So, save yourself the embarrassment and stop lying about doctrines/principals of the LDS church - it only makes you and the church look more despicable.

Also, I'm done making comments on your blog because it is truly a waste of my time. I just had to get that last one in (even if you don't post it - I know YOU got it). God Bless and I truly hope you let Him open your eyes to the Truth - something you'd never feel compelled to defend with lies and deceit.

Bob said...

I love the comments. Very fun.

To Steve Jones: Shawn is not even remotely "accurate". Accurate would be he presents what we believe, not what he believes his interpretation of our beliefs REALLY is. Have you even read the stuff on this blog? I do cite sources (unlike Shawn's usual approach).

I must chuckle at the sheer "bravery" of anonymous in asserting his arguments are soooooo good that I won't publish them. Ooooh, I know. He through down the challenge to rattle my pride so that I would be forced to respond.

Or, he could just read my blog and see I pretty much publish any comment so long as it is not vulgar or personally assaults myself or other people.

Another case of pure drive by. No documentation. Calls me a knowing liar, FUD-master. (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt for those of you from Rio Linda).

Look, my point is the opposite. I stand up, tell you exactly what I believe, provide a Biblical basis and historical information, and try to provide a reasonable interpretation.

Anonymous is "confused" by what I do because he is confronted by explicit contradiction of his world view. I am not really sorry for that.

Did you also notice no scriptures? Yeah. It is always easier to spew platitudes than to provide a Biblical frame work and having to do so in a critical and logical manner.

Don't go away mad. Go away converted! At least admit you don't bother to engage in a debate.
Thanks,
Bob

Anonymous said...

Since the bible will only be fully understood by reading it contextually, I would like to site all the chapters and verses of the following books of the bible to back up my comments of true “Christianity” vs. Mormonism: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalm, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

I’m not just trying to be a “smart-alec”, I’m being very serious. Mormonism can’t do this – they have to discredit the bible, pull out their prophets’ “revelations” and carefully crafted church manuals to back up their claims of truth. Christians accept the entire bible as Truth and they are backed up by it 100%. Bob, the debate between Mormonism and Christianity will always end in a stale mate and they’ll just have to agree to disagree. Case closed. God bless!

Anonymous said...

Bob are you going to defend yourself and enlighten the true-believing LDS how you claim Mormonism, believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and still find a way to make the following statement: "Anyway, where did the idiotic idea of people becoming gods of their own planets come from? Not from LDS doctrine"
If you do indeed claim Mormonism and believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, then please also clarify how the above statement is still in line with another statement you made, as follows: “I stand up, tell you exactly what I believe, provide a Biblical basis and historical information, and try to provide a reasonable interpretation.” No doubt, there are some very confused LDS out there after reading your take on Mormonism. Maybe you’re one of the one’s that picks and chooses what they want to believe. If that’s the case, then I can see where the confusion lies.
Alright, I’m gonna try really hard to leave you alone now. (not that you care either way). :)

Anonymous said...

It's laughable how many Protestants on this blog conceal their persuasion behind what they deem "Christian". If Latter-Day Saints are to "Own" the term "Mormon" as one ignorant commenter claims, then why don't the yellow-bellied commenters "OWN" theirs as well. Perhaps their insecurity of their particular faith cannot endure criticism (not that any should be provided) Or perhaps their faith's reprehensible history will compromise their integrity (if they have any that is).
Oh, don't forget to love thy neighbor. Well... that is if you love God of coarse.

Bob Burgener said...

I can no longer send e-mail to Shawn McCraney because he has blocked my e-mail.

Everytime he would bring up a statement against the Mormon Church or its Doctrines, I would e-mail him the actual proof showing him that he was leaving a lot of information out.

Instead of answering my e-mails he would just send back disgusting, nasty, arrogant remarks.

There is always two sides however on Shawn's show you only hear one of them.

Bob Burgener

hockeygoon79 said...

I'm listening to the conversation between Shawn and Van and Shawn doesn't listen to Van. He just talks over him the whole time. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Devin St. Clair said...

If you think that Mormons don't call into the show to confront Shawn on his facts I think your delusional... He CLEARLY and REGULARLY takes calls from knowledgeable Mormons and they get destroyed every time with simple logic and God's Word. Have you actually watched the show?

fieldlily said...

Greetings! Just found your blog & what struck me most is your lack of Biblical (or anthropological) knowledge regarding the practice of polygamy in the Bible. You obviously have not consulted with a Rabbi or Jewish scholar for the passages you quoted that supposedly uphold the practice in the Bible (or read theTorah in its entirety). Yes, it is true that polygamy was practiced in Biblical times; however, it was not instituted by God. We have only to look to Genesis 2:21-24 to know that God ordained monogamy, not polygamy.  And according to the Hebrew tradition, it was the first man Adam who set the precedent for monogamy...in the garden, in the beginning, before the eating of forbidden fruit.

Regarding Hagar, in Genesis 16:7-16, you need to back up & refer your readers to the whole story. You only mention a small portion of Hagar's story in your blog. The fact is, an angel of the Lord (not God) told Hagar to return & submit to her mistress, Sarai (not Abram), in the passages you quoted. Why? Hagar had taunted Sarai about her infertility...publicly shaming her mistress' inability to conceive. As a consequence, Sarai banished Hagar. Then an angel commands Hagar to return & submit to Sarai as her servant...not submit to the practice of polygamy. 

Earlier in the story the reader learns that Hagar was a slave of Sarai, given by Sarai to her husband Abram for the getting of a child. This kind of surrogacy was a commonly, accepted practice in ancient times for barren women. Notice that Hagar only bore Abram & Sarai one child...Ishmael...in the 13 years preceding the birth of Isaac. Had this been an ordained marriage arrangement sanctioned by God, one would think there would be many children born into this 'love' triangle. But such was not the case. If you continue reading the story, Abram eventually casts out Hagar after the birth of Isaac. And he does not take another wife or father more children until after the death of Sarai. 

Perhaps that is why their son Isaac takes only one wife during his lifetime, Rebekah? He did not wish to make the same mistake his parents had made in their marriage. As for Isaac & Rebekah's son Jacob, he was a sneaky fellow. He deceived his father Isaac & was later deceived into marrying two women (according to their custom, not God's) by his father-in-law. Such goes the Biblical practice of polygamy in the Abrahamic family tree.

Interesting observation: If polygamy was commanded by God in the Bible, then why did Abram & Sarai wait so long to start practicing polygamy? Abram was 86 when Hagar gave birth to Ishmael. Surely if God had ordained polygamy, Abram & Sarai would have entered into the practice much earlier in their marriage? What's more, God does not enter into a Covenant with Abram until he's 99...13 years after Ishmael was born & polygamy had already been "practiced" by Abram, Sarai & Hagar. One should read & study the entire history of Biblical polygamy in order to truly understand the purpose(s) & reasons for the practice, therein. After all, that is from where you are quoting your sources, right?

To be contInued...

Bob said...

Fidelity,
You wrote:
"The fact is, an angel of the Lord (not God) told Hagar to return & submit to her mistress, Sarai (not Abram), in the passages you quoted."

Are you serious? If you would mind providing some additional references where angels sent from God don't actually speak for him? This would be a first, so let's see how this goes down: The angel, in your analysis, is oblivious to the sinful life that Hagar has been forced into by her mistress Sarah, and thinks it is better for her to go back and learn to stop mocking and taunting Sarah than to get out of a situation of violating the Law of Chastity and putting Abraham, the heir of the covenant, into a state of ADULTERY. Adultery vs. taunting. Yes, I can see how your analysis must be correct. NOT.

Let's move on.

Your re-writing of what "one would think" about Abraham and Hagar having only one child is truly baffling. With the situation of Sarai being barren, "one would think" that God would have simply made Sarai fertile rather than permitting her to violate the sanctity of their marriage by providing a woman to turn her husband into an adulterer. What does the NT teach about adulterers? Oh yeah, they will have no part in salvation. 1 cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21; Heb 13:4; james 4:4-7, 17; Rev 2:20-23. Particularly interesting is how Abraham's promise, according to Gal 3, is the means through which we also are saved, for he was born of the promise not the Law. Unless you are not going to contend that God has different criteria for judging humans, one of which involves Abraham and directly contradicts the teachings within Galatians. If you believe that, then you probably should consider writing to a site which does not try to reason with people out of the scriptures.

My friend, I have not doubt you think you have figured out some angle to avoid the obvious issue of Abraham, Sarai and Hagar: The angel sent Hagar back into a relationship of adultery. Why does God reassure Hagar that her son would be blessed to be the father of a great nation(Gen 21:18)? Just like Abraham's seed?

In your version of history, Abraham is ignorant of having not looked to Genesis 2, which tradition or scriptural story certainly came through him to Moses since his genealogy is traced back to Adam. He willingly lives the traditions of the tribes and people around him. Sure.

Which is why he freely engages in bisexuality. Oh wait, he doesn't, even though that was the common custom of Sodom and Gomorrah. Such was the tradition of sexual deviancy in Abraham's day, but Abraham knows better than to break that law of God.

I suspect you have a separate response on David's gift of plural wives from God, so I won't address the fact that God personally states he gave those wives to David, and would have given him more if that had been too little. Your theological perspective demands you ignore the actual history.

Thanks for writing.
Bob

Bob said...

Devin,
For Shawn, it is one and done. He doesn't let people who could out shine him on the air. He flat out said "that is why we don't allow you on the show, Bob." At which point he hung up on me. He lost his cool, misrepresented the "infallibility" of an LDS apostle, and was rude and sarcastic. I was only polite and direct. Listen to show 193 from Dec 1, 2009 at the 53 to 55 minute section. He cancelled having guys like me on the show in 2010 because there was "only" 7-9 "qualified" apologists to come on the program, even though I offered to get him 30 or 40 more people who would be happy to come on to discuss the doctrines and history of the LDS Church.

So keep dreaming that what you see is even remotely resembling the LDS response to his arguments. Remember, he takes a week to prepare for each show, we get a few minutes to get on the last half of the show if he would let us. He even attacked me the following week at the 16 minute mark. Note that I could not defend myself by calling in. His assertion about me derisively calling people "Santa's broken toys" was false. He said I was deceptive. He lied about what I said. In fact, I was 100% accurate. The fact that Elder Lee was mistaken and people will follow him is no different than the mistakes people follow as committed by Shawn. History shows Joseph ordained Elijah Abel as a 70. He did not rescind his ordination. So being wrong about the history does not make Elder Lee false, he just had inaccurate research. That was what I was trying to correct. Shawn's judgements about me are no concern.
Bob

weston krogstadt said...

Thanks for this post about Shawn McCraney. Isn't it amazing how these professional Born-Again Christian Anti-mormons can lie and lie and lie about the LDS church and it's members, and the other "Christians" seem to give them a free pass.

Anonymous said...

The comments on this site, are probably,just as the the ignorant farmers, and country boys were in josephs day, who believed a con artest. I cant believe we are just as gullable, as they were. If a salesman selling snake oil, came here today, you all would buy it.

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