Thursday, June 12, 2014

Classic Endings to Hubris

OK, the recent exchange with the "anonymous" writer I suspect is over.  We just received the following two responses:

 Anonymous said...
There is an old saying in the south that we say when someone just doesn't get things. That saying is "bless your heart". Bob, bless your heart. Let me ask you a question. Do you want me to bow down to you because of your intelligence and because you will be a "god" someday? Do you want me to tell you how smart you are and that I wish I could be like you? Despite your education, you are a very foolish man when it comes to your knowledge in the Bible and faith.
I could care less how much greek you speak. I could care less about your mormon text that was inspired by a man that has no knowledge of Spiritual matters. What you speak about is of this world and not based on anything Spiritual. You are not knowledgeable in the Bible and I certainly trust what Ryrie says over your blasphemous beliefs because he is grounded in the Spirit. You my friend Bob, are just like the Pharisees Jesus is referring to in the Bible. Read Matthew 23:13-39. Woe unto you Bob.
You are prideful. You will not admit your wrongdoings. You keep mentioning the things I won't answer and I told you that if you were of the Spirit you would understand these things. But you are not, therefore you won't. Why won't you answer me about Galatians 1:8-9. Why won't you answer me about whether or not you sin. Bob, you are a sinner. There is NOTHING you can ever do to save yourself. You are an awful sinner. Works don't save. Not only are you a sinner, but I am too. I am just man enough to admit it because I believe I need Jesus and that He is Lord and that He saved me from my sins. He is all I need because I can't save myself.
You are a man with a hard heart Bob. Despite your claims of being smart, you are nothing but a fool to me. Your education will never impress me. The only thing you can do that will make me respect you is to put aside your heretical mormon texts, the ridiculous and unfulfilled doctrine and covenants, the so-called translated papryi of the book of Abraham, and read the New Testament to teach you about the real Jesus.
You are NOT a Christian. We need to make that clear. I have mentioned there is only one heaven and one hell and the only way to heaven is by accepting the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord, believing that He was raised from the dead, and working out this salvation. You must accept Grace, God's unmerited favor.
Face it Bob, your education is just like the Pharisees. You are to prideful to recognize who Jesus really is and because you have not received His Spirit, you are not able to discern these Spiritual matters. It is really sad. I feel sorry for you. But, I have not stopped praying for you.
I can't help but think that in a couple of weekends, I will be going to Eldorado, TX to visit some family. If you recall, there was a mormon temple built in Eldorado where these men practiced polygamy and married young women. These men were so-called prophets and said they received a "call" from your god. Explain to me, BOB, how these men are not a part of your false faith. Explain to me how they are not following "true mormon texts". Polygamy is in your doctrine and covenants and this is an outright heretical teaching. Warren Jeffs was a prophet, wasn't he? Don't you agree with what he believes because it is ALL in your mormon text?
Because of your educational background, it sounds like you like proof. Your ridiculous explanation regarding how the American Indians did not have any Jewish DNA was just laughable. Get over it Bob. Your religion is a farce and your founding father was a man that needed serious mental help.
You need Jesus. I will continue to pray for you and your hard heart. I really feel sorry for how out of touch with reality you are but anything is possible with God. Remember, the truth hurts, but the truth also sets you free.
6/12/2014 8:09 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
And by the way, there are NO modern day prophets. Your prophet within the mormon faith is a phony.
If you need someone else to start up another modern day religion, maybe you can become a pretend prophet yourself and profit from your propheting.
So, it starts off insulting.  Somehow I am a bad person because I refuse to submit to his obvious superior spiritual endowments.  So the obviously denigrating comment that he should "bow down because of [my] intelligence."  Well, if that is what he normally does when he meets people who out work him to understand the Bible, OK, but keep it modest.  I blush easily.

So let's recall that his original charges included that Mormons in general and me in particular don't understand the scriptures, and he cited several which he said supported his position.  He was wrong, and as you can see for yourself, I was able to systematically dismember his position using only the finest academic sources, none of which are LDS.
This has resulted in another insult and illogical appeal to his own authority as the source for religious truth:  "I could care less how much greek (sic) you speak... you are nothing but a fool to me."

So he asks why I won't admit I sin.  I have, many times, including in these posts and responses.  He asserts I claim that we can work our way into heaven.  Sorry to let him know, but I have written extensively on that story line that it is impossible to save ourselves.  We are saved through grace.  It is impossible to be saved without grace from God.  But, we have an obligation to be obedient.  That is the obligation we have as recipients of Christ's grace.  I quoted the definition of grace, (Greek Xaris) as found in the foremost Bible Lexicon, BDAG 3rd edition, and as I put into a response to his statements on May 31, 2014:
 "Almost a technical term in the reciprocity-oriented world dominated by Hellenic influence as well as by the Semitic sense of social obligation expressed in the Hebrew term (checed, Strongs H2617). In the active sense, that which one grants to another, the action of one who volunteers to do something not otherwise obligatory. Especially of the beneficent intention of God. Compare secular writings of xaris to denote beneficent dispensations of the emperor: and of Christ who give (undeserved)to people; (from BDAG, page 1079, entry Xaris, 2 and 2a. These definitions include Eph 1:6ff, Rom 3:24, etc. In other words the commonly used passages to describe the Evangelical understanding of "grace".)
 So the LDS concept of grace coupled with obedience and repentance is the most Biblical approach compared to the practice of other faiths.

Now he asked why I would not respond to Galatians 1:8-9.  I have before, but what the hey, let's do it again. 
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before ,  so say I now again,  If  any  man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed. 


Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Typical anti Mormon rhetoric, when they are beat and can not answer honest questions or defend their position, they start with personal attacks/insults and make false accusations, then move on to bringing up several subjects at once and attack those subjects.
Anti Mormons do not care about honest dialogue and honest debate as this Anonymous person demonstrated. Quite sad, really. But typical and predictable.
Typical anti Mormon MO.


Anonymous said...

It is interesting how this Anonymous thinks Ryrie is the end all on Scriptural information and Biblical truth, yet Anon then accuses Bob (which would include all LDS) of following Joseph Smith.
Anon does not follow Christ, he follows a man, Ryrie. Anon believes everything Ryrie says. Hypocrisy at its best, which anti Mormons are very good at.

Anonymous said...

On an anti Mormon site there is a man who uses Ryrie's Olive Tree Bible software and other Bible study tools by Ryrie. *Insert sarcasm* No bias at all, nuh uh, no siree, no bias when using Ryrie.

Bob said...

Sorry for the confusion on this Post. I think it was too long or something, and so the ending got messed up. Here is how the ending should have appeared:
So first, there is more than a little hubris assuming his "gospel" is the one taught by Paul. As I have previously written and documented, Paul does not believe in "once saved, always saved". So much so, that he doesn't believe he is personally destined for salvation. He can still fall:
Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained , either were already perfect : but I follow after , if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended : but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 9:26 I therefore so run , not as uncertainly; so fight I , not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection : lest that by any means , when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Clearly the Gospel taught by Paul was not the once-saved always saved stuff. Paul himself was taught the Gospel by an angel, who happened to be Jesus. Just like Joseph.

I am a Christian. I follow Jesus as best I can, repent when I mess up, and do what I can to be obedient the rest of the time.

Then there is the obligatory additional insults. I am educated like a Pharisee. Cool. Guess that is true, I mean I actually do read the scriptures. I am pretty sure I don't think I should pray on corners, that I should think myself better than others, and that no one is saved but us Mormons.

Well, I figured he wouldn't be able to answer the hard questions, because he clearly hasn't really worked through the hard issues. Everybody who has a deep, committed faith eventually comes to grip with the hard issues. I doubt I will ever convince anonymous that I am anything other than an empty white-washed shell of a satan worshipping, dead gospel man. It is unfortunate his faith allows him to feel that way about people without some guilt. But I would still be interested in seeing if he can answer some of those hard questions he is averse to answering. It is usually the things we don't want to talk about we are most afraid of.

Of course, could be some new forms of name calling. That is certainly helpful in determining who really does have the Spirit in their life.Delete

Anonymous said...


Nope. Its not over. I am just on vacation in beautiful Destin, FL. Tonight is the first time I have had a chance to look at a computer and I am very honored you put one of my comments on your blog post. This means I am making you think.

I want you to know I am getting a following of my own that is reading what I am writing and absolutely love that I am proclaiming the truth. They are not commenting on your site, but they are certainly praying for me while I am doing this. I am also praying for you. Just for the record, I have not heard you say one time that you are praying for me and that you hope to convert me to your faith. So, because of this, who has the Spirit Bob? I care for you. You could care less about me. You just want to show off your intellectual intelligence to me and others. Are you praying for me Bob? Please tell me if you are and if I am going to your mormon heaven.

Anyway, you will hear much more from me when I am done vacationing. As always, keep seeking the truth because you will be amazed at what freedom feels like.

By the way, I will start ending my comments with Jay so you will know that it is me.



Bob said...

I pray for many people. Honestly, I don't really see how there will be a difference in your posts whether you are at home or on vacation. You won't respond or interact with the topics or scriptures. So I hope your "following" is gratifying your since of direction, cuz I am pretty sure we are not seeing why you take time to write when you don't seem to care about either the accuracy of your comments or responding to the questions posed to you. But it is a wholesome past time. Enjoy your vacation.

JediMormon said...

Bob: As one who dialogues via the internet with anti-LDS folks on almost a daily basis, your experiences mirror my own, right down to the accusations, name calling, and warnings that I'm hell-bound if I stay in the church.

Keep up the good fight!

Todd Hovorka said...

Darn, what happened to your friend Jay? I was getting a real kick out of listening to him beat his chest in a desperate effort to intimidate you with his overwhelming intellect. I feel like my cable just went out in the middle of watching Rocky ;) Grrr!!